France and Germany to develop new European fighter jet

originally posted by: anzha
Trouble in paradise, folks. Germany wants the next gen aircraft it was planning to build with the french to have significant export restrictions placed on it. The French do not.

www.defensenews.com...[/quo te]


There is something wrong with that article, unless I misread the Franco German 6th gen is aimed to ween Europeans off US technology.

Ok, so Grippen, Typhoon, Jaguar, Tornado, Harrier, Rafale, Viggen....are insignificant?

In regards to Typhoon, only some parts from Hamilton Sundstrand were from the US, in the General Systems side rather than avionics.

edit on 29 10 2018 by Forensick because: (no reason given)

edit on 29 10 2018 by Forensick because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: Forensick
There is something wrong with that article, unless I misread the Franco German 6th gen is aimed to ween Europeans off US technology.

That's the point of a French-led programme which is branded as European. By the time the Franco-German effort produces an actual aircraft the EU will have become even closer together (perhaps with a unified military) and it will be a captive marketplace. Note Airbus and Dassault have both chided Belgium for its recent decision to buy the American F35.

Whining Airbus

Would be ideal time for the Brits to push the Tempest through.Let the EU run around in circles while it gets on with the work.

a reply to: Blackfinger

It comes down to one issue: money. There is no way that the Brits can alone afford to finance a 6th generation aircraft on their own, assuming they want to develop new technology engines, radar, stealth high performance materials and other avionics breakthroughs. It would mean too many other programs would suffer. They'd have to get partners like the Saudis or a larger consortium. The sensible thing is to team up with the Germans and French to produce 1 fighter for the European environment.

originally posted by: Borys
The sensible thing is to team up with the Germans and French to produce 1 fighter for the European environment.

The problem is that the French and Germans are doing this to consolidate the industry within the EU. This is politics.

They also have a problem that they are starting a bit behind the British who have been involved in fifth generation aircraft for some time. I am sure the French and German-run Airbus would love the Brits to take part and transfer all their technology, but they won't want the Brits as an partner in anything but a subservient role.

Interestingly, after the Brits announced their initiative there was brief talk from Airbus that it would be a good idea for the Brits to join. That talk was soon snubbed out.

After the Taranis fiasco I doubt BAE will play with France again.

a reply to: paraphi

I would love if the politics of Brexit could be magically alleviated from all defense work: all the European nations regardless of EU status need to work together on defense technology, with a dangerous Russia on the doorstep and a changing America that may become more isolationist in the future. A 6th generation fighter can bring Europe together and give it a huge industry boost, with the real possibility of massive export dollars from Asia over the coming decades.

This one somehow slipped me, but it looks like Dassault has displayed a "New Generation Fighter" model at the Euronaval expo.

French source with some nice pics:
www.aerobuzz.fr...

Looks pretty sleek, would love to see it flying some day.

a reply to: Blackfinger

What was that?

a reply to: Borys

Clearly, if the motivation for the exclusion of Britain as a partner in the Franco-German fighter is the consolidation of the EU's industry, then Brexit is a cause.

However, France has traditionally been a poor partner, especially where Britain is involved, as they squabble around work-share, primacy and so on. The last two most significant fighter aircraft collaborations in Europe have not included the French - Tornado and Typhoon. Even the biggest global programme - that of the F35 had a significant portion of UK input.

In the politics of the EU post-Brexit, we can see noses being cut off all over the place as EU politicians spite their faces.

The UK needs to get some other international partners and move ahead, then so be it.

originally posted by: paraphi
The UK needs to get some other international partners and move ahead, then so be it.

Continue working with the US I say, we chose the F35 platform and that is working well so far. We speak the same language, are massively involved with each other in many defence/intelligence issues, screw the EU, we don't need them.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

It makes sense unless you are concerned about preserving an industrial base. I doubt that the Rafale ever will make an actual profit, but it served to preserve the industry so the trade off was worth it to the French

a reply to: FredT
It was the dodgiest of deals ever though lol.
I'm happy if the UK finds better nations to deal with than France. We could see new alliances post Brexit.

I'd like to see us team up with Japan, and NG. A yf-23 with modern avionics, das, RR next gen engines and Meteor would be very cool.

a reply to: justwokeup

Way too short a range.

You need a clean sheet.

My bet is the fighter fans are going to be radically disappointed in the next gen "fighter."

My predictions! USAF NGAD!

Wimpy on G loading (less than either Rhino). Not very maneuverable at all. Almost certainly no thrust vectoring. In a furball, it'd be toast, but with DEW, furballs are ancient history.

It'll be F-111 to B-58 in size. It'll have very long range (F-111+ range unrefueled) and have a F-15X sized internal magazine (meaning 16 to 24 missiles) plus having a HEL. 2+ crew: might have more as new avionics are amazing, but flying, controlling UCAV swarms, EW and cyberattack may all need to happen simultaneously.

One prototype will be a flying wing, my bet, and the other will look like a Rapier and a Spirit had some a bender and a kid. Either way, no tail. A supersonic tailless ought to be interesting either way.

Navy FA-XX will be smaller and shorter ranged, but very more than the 35C's combat range. It'll be a multirole. The Navy will lament the Tomcat more and after they award the FA-XX and the 35Cs are being wrapped up, we'll see an interceptor.

Wilder speculation:

The USAF will select probably Lockheed and Boeing to build them for the PCA/NGAD. I bet the Navy selects (when they finally really start their program) Boeing and Northrop for the FA-XX, unless Northrop teams with one of the others. Since it seems kind probably an F-35D is in the mix, I doubt we'll see Lockheed win either. However, I bet there will be an interceptor added to the navy flight deck and they'll have a legit shot at that.

No matter what, I bet Boeing gets one. Industrial base and jobs, folks.

All speculation. Not uninformed though.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: FredT
It was the dodgiest of deals ever though lol.
I'm happy if the UK finds better nations to deal with than France. We could see new alliances post Brexit.

If I were the UK I would look at Japan to be honest. I agree that EU deals come with too many entanglements and the UK will not have the defense budget to go it alone with a 5th gen but Japan offers alot of benefits

Nice looking plane, but to paraphrase "Talk is cheap"...

"Nice 3D printed metallic scale models of proposed 6th generation fighters are cheap: full on R&D for engines, avionics, high performance stealth materials, systems integration, multiple full scale prototyping, next generation support systems, advanced manufacturing techniques and bribes to ensure some foreign countries buy it...well, probably not so cheap..."

a reply to: FredT
The UK is going its own way with the new Tempest fighter.
www.bbc.co.uk...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: FredT
Yes and I would probably throw Sweden/SAAB into the mix as well, they have a certain knack of pulling off a lot with little and timing is about right for them to look at a next gen anyway.

a reply to: anzha
I actually think you are on the right track. I have often said the next fighter will need to be more like F-111 than the teen series. Long range and deep magazines are far more important, as it takes pressure off tanking assets that are already in short supply, plus it pushes your engagement front way out. I would say 1500-2000 NM is realistic and 2 dozen plus AMRAAM sized missiles about right, DEWS is a given and of course it will need to be twin engined. I would also concur on crewing, at least 2 possibly even 3 to handle everything. This aircraft is going to be much more strategic strike bomber sized than F-15.