France and Germany to develop new European fighter jet

a reply to: thebozeian

I doubt you get three crew. Maybe not even two. Look what DARPA/Sikorsky is openly doing with ALIAS, and realize this isn't the only similar program being funded, and you'll see where things are headed (or at least being aimed for). It's going to become like commercial air with the crew managing systems while the plane predominantly flies itself.

a reply to: thebozeian

I had a friend I talked to a lot who worked for a British aerospace company during the 90s. He stated about teaming:

Think hard before including the Americans. Always team with the Italians. Never with the French. Think just as hard about the Germans as the Americans.

a reply to: anzha

The problem with countries in the EU is that they will be sucked and coerced into a French-led industrial pact. The deal between the French and the Germans stitches Europe up and you can see this as a starter for ten. The treatment by the EU of the UK's involvement in the EU-led GPS is a sign of the times. That's more a problem for the EU in my opinion.

a reply to: paraphi
# the French, and the Germans, we don't need them.
The new Tempest fighter is all UK, and we are fitting our new carriers with F35's in partnership with the US.
I couldn't give a # what the Franco-German alliance is doing, they can stick it up their arses.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

But what happened with Taranis @blacfinger?

I thought they just started looking a FCAS or FOAS again with the French, didn’t hear anything has happened to that ‘partnership’.

There is a study paper that suggests 6th gen (or at least a part of it) will just be in permanent LRIP and never become one platform, maybe based around a common planform but with countries adding their own systems and weapons depending on where the politics of that period are leaning.

Relatively affordable and then able to scale up enmasse as a threat emerges. Unmanned means you don’t need to keep 100’s of pilots trained and ready, just a subset for your height cost platforms.

Proliferation of Russian and Chinese SAMs to everyone will mean there is many contested airspace and with long range hypersonic missiles mean the aircraft will be unmanned and able to take the attrition away from the more expensive assets.

Probably makes sense to have a common base platform that all countries can produce at a quick ramp up rate?

rusi.org...

But what happened with Taranis @blacfinger?

From what Ive read French got better end of the deal leaving the Brits to pull out.

a reply to: Blackfinger

I found this saying the Brits put it on hold:

www.defensenews.com...

Not sure the Brexit angle makes sense, surely a partnership between UK and EU would show there was a future for post Brexit collaborations? Certainly from a UK perspective.

I can imagine the French being told by their government to make it a completely unattractive project making the UK pull out thus furthering their Brexit scaremongering.

I prefer not working with them too closely on these cutting edge projects, never heard a good collaboration story with them, always greedy, but I suppose you only tend to hear bad news stories!

a reply to: Forensick
I gave it a read as well.Thanks good to see where on same page.I do know the French were ahead by a few years with NEURON..From a mate of mine its like that in the Science world.If its free grab it.Piracy is drinking rum before 10

Le Maire :

This empire will be based (??) on the principles of
technological, (Concorde doh!)
economic, (Greece doh!)
financial, (Italy doh!)
monetary ()ECB doh!)
and cultural (Adolf Hitler doh!)
power. “Europe should no longer be afraid of using its power and [become] an empire of peace.”

LOL

a reply to: Flanker86

And what exactly is wrong with Concord at least we managed unlike the Russian effort which also put a lovely show in at Paris.
I also noticed you went very quiet on the kuznetsov thread as well.....

a reply to: Woody510

www.defensenews.com...

a reply to: anzha
Germany and France,what could go wrong :-P

a reply to: Blackfinger
Nothing as long as you are a German who irrationally thinks they can get this without having to spend real money, or French and think it your right to f**k everyone else over in the deal. Even the normally compliant Spaniards are keeping their options open on this one.
Like you said, what could go wrong?

Meh, haters gonna hate.

I am actually pretty excited to see where it goes. The roles seems to be clear, with France developing the aircraft and Germany the companion UAV. So it won't be another Eurofighter. I could see it happening relatively fast once the official go-ahead is given.

a reply to: thebozeian

I just can't see Germany putting the funds in for this one especially if the rumours about the state of their airforce is true.

a reply to: Woody510

www.janes.com...

This might have a plot twist in the waiting. France needs this aircraft to be nuclear capable. Germany may not want this. However, they are under obligation from NATO to have nuclear capable aircraft and had asked if the US would certify the Eurofighter for that role.

I think every partner and potential partner to Tempest and FCAS (or whatever they are calling themselves today) realizes that if they want a healthy, sustainable, and affordable large-scale program "there can be only one". The rest is just a race to see which side can grab the most partners to commit first and force the other program to submit and the battle over workshare.

Think of how much cheaper EFA and Rafale would have ended up if they hadn't divorced. Not a knock on Rafale, which I think is superior to the Tiff in a few ways, but a lower unit cost would have driven exports for the original combined program. France now gets essentially 100% of 165 Rafale airframes instead of 30% of a combined program acquisition of 800 (+ whatever could be bought inside or outside the consortium for the same money based on savings and lowered unit price) which could still be healthy moving forward from today in 2018.

Noone wants a repeat.

Apparently Spain is is looking to join the French-German project. Airbus is still hopeful Britain will join with Airbus and Dassault as the runner's of the show. I am sure they'll give BAE a walk on part.

a reply to: paraphi

I wonder if there isn't a mad dash to negotiate Italy in.

For all their crazy political shenanigans, the Italians do good work.

a reply to: anzha

Italy has done some great stuff with the M-346, and Leonardo does indeed have a good track record in parts. But I don't think that the problem the Europeans have is so much a technical base, but rather program management skills to get all these partners from different countries, who speak different native languages, have different engineering and management cultures to work together and deliver not just individual technical breakthroughs in a number of areas - which is challenging enough - but to get them to deliver an integrated capability in one airframe and all the associated support systems, on time, on budget and on spec. Even the Americans, with vastly more experience in the field and so many other innate benefits from culture, money, technical skills base and similar, have struggled here. The Tornado and Typhoon struggled with cost overruns, and a 6th generation platform, which could end up being far more ambitious, could well test the limits of European resolve.