Number of children being referred to gender identity clinics has quadrupled in five years

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: Abysha

The case of a set of twins can't surely account for everyone. I work with people that suffer from all different types of mental illness on a daily basis, whether dysphoria can be attributed to mental illness is debatable, but I've seen enough to know that nurture is definitely a possibility.

What it did was prove that you have an innate knowledge of your gender, regardless of what others tell you. If I put you in a coma, performed a sex change on you, and erased your memory, you'd wake up knowing something wasn't right.

a reply to: Abysha

Yes because you'd have amnesia.

a reply to: Abysha

And I wouldn't doubt that, nor have I ever dismissed that notion.

My issue is just forcing this on kids, where nurture can and will take place. I mentioned earlier, that the most impressionable years of our lives is around 5 years old, where we don't possess critical thinking abilities, or are we able to understand what innate feelings may or may not reside in us. We are incapable of understanding at that age. What I do know, is at that age, our brains are sponges and the information we take in then, shape how we perceive the world and ultimately who we become.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TzarChasm
. . . wait until you are old enough to at least drive, . . .

Way too late.

Hormone blockers need to be taken before any physical changes that happen during puberty.

Right, which is why it's child abuse to allow kids to take them.

Their body knows which gender they are, even if their brain is confused. It's an autonomic process.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Yes because you'd have amnesia.

You'd also suddenly be a woman with amnesia who knew they were a man. Phantom penile syndrome, etc.

a reply to: Abysha

Look at it this way:

Kids aren't born with an inherent sense of right and wrong. They are born with instincts like little animals. It's a parent's job to shape behavior, even against instinct which is largely selfish, to make children into little human beings with thoughts of others and morality, etc., all the good stuff.

Sexual instincts don't really begin in full until puberty, so there isn't a strong drive with inclinations one way or another until those years begin. So any attempt at sexual instruction before then is more or less programming that could run counter to actual sexuality later on, and of course, when the hormones begin there is almost always that period of confusion you go through because the hormones and the experiences that come with them are new. And it's another period of vulnerability to programming.

Are you really trying to help them through confusion or shape it to predetermined, preferred outcomes?

a reply to: Abysha

And you have actually done this experiment to know this how? Highly unethical I would think.

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: Abysha

And I wouldn't doubt that, nor have I ever dismissed that notion.

My issue is just forcing this on kids, where nurture can and will take place. I mentioned earlier, that the most impressionable years of our lives is around 5 years old, where we don't possess critical thinking abilities, or are we able to understand what innate feelings may or may not reside in us. We are incapable of understanding at that age. What I do know, is at that age, our brains are sponges and the information we take in then, shape how we perceive the world and ultimately who we become.

But explain and then show what is actually being "forced" upon five-year-olds. As far as I know (I have a daughter who's in elementary), they teach that it's a thing and to not be a jerk about it when you come across it. That's necessary in my eyes because I know of a lot of parents who teach the opposite. When you have one segment of the population that is a minority yet the highest chance of being murdered, I think it's important to teach the next generations that you probably shouldn't kill people just because you don't understand them.

What are you all thinking they are teaching beyond that? And if you cite some religious blog, please understand I will dismiss it unless it's backed up by a source showing the curriculum. I want to know what exactly it is you are concerned about. Heck, maybe I just don't know and I'm missing something.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha
Sexual instincts don't really begin in full until puberty,

This is the biggest wall I bang my head against when talking about this with some people. I don't know if it's the media/product commercials that has made you think this way but... sex has nothing to do with this.

So I agree with you but that has nothing to do with gender dysphoria.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

And you have actually done this experiment to know this how? Highly unethical I would think.

It's been done. When children are born with indeterminate genitalia (or botched circumcisions), the doctors used to choose what to make the baby based on how big the penis or clitoris might be when they grow up (gross motive, I know). These children (the ones the doctors chose wrong with) grow up looking for answers because they know they are not the gender that matches their body or upbringing. They have gender dysphoria created by the doctors.

a reply to: Abysha

It's not so much what they are "teaching" because I'm not in the classes to know, but just exposing them to certain dynamics, that not only are they incapable of understanding, they don't even need to understand. At that age it is not healthy, and like Ketsuko said above, is just programming and predetermining their thoughts more than anything.

And it goes much deeper than just the schools.

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: Abysha

It's not so much what they are "teaching" because I'm not in the classes to know, but just exposing them to certain dynamics, that not only are they incapable of understanding, they don't even need to understand. At that age it is not healthy, and like Ketsuko said above, is just programming and predetermining their thoughts more than anything.

And it goes much deeper than just the schools.

Be specific please. What "dynamics" do you know they (public school as a whole) are teaching that you do not agree with?

Defining this might help because I think the two sides to this have very different ideas in their mind of what's actually happening.

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

How interesting it was at the end of 2011 that the SJW movement was born.

And the thing the whole thing seems bent on is full tilt mass scale social engineering, yet when you mention the concept to any of them they scoff and gnash that is isn't an actual 'thing'; to them SE is some kind of myth, or at least that's their public face.

a reply to: Abysha

Exposing the idea that it's possible a boy can be a girl, and a girl can be a boy?

That alone is already dangerous and unnecessary to teach to a 5 year old. Not only does a 5 year old not fully understands what a boy or girl even means - other than one has a pee pee and one doesn't - they are not even thinking about it. They are thinking about recess and milk. So introducing them to this dynamic at this age, you are forcing them to comprehend something they simply cannot.

Gender is far more complex than just pee pee or not, I hope we can agree on that?

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

That's because they themselves have been socially engineered to not understand it..

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: Abysha

Exposing the idea that it's possible a boy can be a girl, and a girl can be a boy?

That alone is already dangerous and unnecessary to teach to a 5 year old. Not only does a 5 year old not fully understands what a boy or girl even means - other than one has a pee pee and one doesn't - they are not even thinking about it. They are thinking about recess and milk. So introducing them to this dynamic at this age, you are forcing them to comprehend something they simply cannot.

Gender is far more complex than just pee pee or not, I hope we can agree on that?

Show me the national curriculum where they teach this. As far as I know from my daughter's school, they bring up trans folk as one of several examples of people that are different yet deserve respect (in addition to religions and ethnicities).

And yes, they are thinking of recesses and milk. And now most of them are thinking about not being dicks to people who are different than they are. I call that a win.

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

I have to agree... It is most important that influences and suggestions not be impressed upon young children.

a reply to: Abysha

Were they even thinking about being dicks before they were told not to be dicks? Probably not. Morals and ethics should be taught at home, not at school.

Remember you can win something, and lose something at the same time..

a reply to: Mousygretchen

It really should be that simple right..?

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

Yes, indeed. And mixing up the colors at toy sections of stores is unnecessary.

I would NEVER encourage a child to do the opposite gender things, not even slightly.

It must stem from within the child if at all. And it takes time. No need for permanence.