OP/ED: Bush Budget: More Pork, Less Beef

Mental Laziness Two...

I find it highly ironic that people can simply make unfounded assertions and claims of this degree, Gools, without adequate proper sourcing.

Your comments are typical of some stuff I have read from you, Gools. They are made with no factual backing and amount to nothing but rhetoric aimed and used for your portraying and extending your agenda and biased slant. Apparently, you are used to simply spouting such unfounded and unsubstantiated assertions and claims without being challenged in the real world, huh? Guess what? News Flash: some to many might not question your assertions and so-called factual claims, for one reason or another, but be assured, I will and have.

The assertion that was made by soficrow is a dangerous one to be making. Why? Because we have active and retired military members on this board who may or may not agree with such unbacked assertions and claims. And as such, such claims coming from an ATSNN Reporter, whether it is an Op/Ed piece or not, should be backed. Simple logical and editorial responsibility.

In turn, I simply wished the member to produce his/her factual sourcings for such an assertion and claim. We as members of this community have the right to do so, as in real life, and yet, I get berated for asking for such verification. Interesting but coming from you, not the least bit surprising. I don't take anything and everything as gospel, as some here may, and as a common courtesy, instead of me finding and proving the member and the assertions and claims wrong, I simply opted to allow the member to provide that either he/she is wrong or right in making said assertion, as I would do in real life.

Got a problem with it? Sue me, k?




seekerof

[edit on 6-2-2005 by Seekerof]

This is a view of the 2005 budget.

In fact, out of a total DOE operating budget of $2 billion, the DOE budget request for fiscal year 2005 includes $1.36 billion for weapons programs, or about 79 percent of its total DOE budget, while other science programs receive a mere 3.4 percent or $59.8 million

I guess keeping US nuclear weapons program and is more important that research programs for diseases.

I found this while doing research for another thread I appologized for double link.

www.zmag.org...


It also shows that science programs has dropped from roughly $75 million in FY 2003 to just below $60 million requested for FY 2005. During the same time period, funding for weapons programs at the lab (Los Alamos nuclear program) has increased by about $150 million.

Very troubling I may say.

So, can we get back on topic guys. I wouldn't want to see a moderator warned.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

Our soldiers are left without armor or air cover, and their families live on food stamps.

I missed this the first time around.

It's a lot of bogus trash.

...and it's one of the main arguments being used to increase military spending. Try reading the info...

Many scientists believe "subclinical" prion infections are common, and do underlie epidemic rising rates of heart disease, obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure and various chronic disabilities. Some of the links are quite direct, eg., diabetes and prions, heart disease and prions, vascular disease and prions... Another thing to remember is that prions make proteins mutate, which makes cells mutate. ...Already mutated cells easily can take the next step, and mutate into cancer cells...

Are these the same ones who believe there's about to be a flu epidemic?

Wait, haven't you posted about that one before, too?

Funny how science and evolution work, but it's all related. Again, try reading the info... Just to help you out:

"Mad Cow" Spreading in Deer and Elk
"Mad Cow" Disease Uses Immune System to Spread in Body
Mad Cow-causing Prions Found in All Organs


...Check out the links to molecular biology sources that explain how prions infect other infectious microbes, and hitchhike on them too.

The problems you point out aren't the government's problems, anyway. If people find these things to be a problem, they can stop eating beef.

It's WAAYYY beyond beef sport. We're looking at contaminated water and water treatment facilities, contaminated food production plants, hospitals, you name it. These suckers have never been regulated - standard decontamination and sterilization procedures don't kill them - and now they're everywhere.

...Yah. It's the governments job to protect the nation. Time to clean up the prion terrorists at home.



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Originally posted by Seekerof
Mental Laziness Two...

The assertion that was made by soficrow is a dangerous one to be making. Why? Because we have active and retired military members on this board who may or may not agree with such unbacked assertions and claims. And as such, such claims coming from an ATSNN Reporter, whether it is an Op/Ed piece or not, should be backed. Simple logical and editorial responsibility.

As the referenced article made clear: The needs to provide support to soldiers and their families is one of the main arguments being to used to rationalize larger military appropriations.

FYI - "Rep. Ike Skelton, the ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee, ...charged that the modernizing of equipment was being shortchanged ...Other specific shortfalls, ...include enough money for personnel, families, ..."This approach is short-sighted and ends up hurting the troops," "


In addition - this "Op/Ed" may be one of the most well-referenced articles in the history of ATS. AND it's still under construction as breaking news...



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very interesting read thouigh some people will be fine with the extravagances the budget has. Military spending should be cut IMO and I think it's wrong for it to rise.

thanks,
drfunk

There is no doubting that you placed great effort into this Op/Ed piece, soficrow. I will recognize your efforts. It was an outstanding effort and one I did not intend to simply 'trash' intentionally or without regard for your efforts. I read it, looked at your links, and commented on one piece of information that was not found mentioned or substantiated in any of your links given. I am sincerely sorry if you took offense to my question and/or response to another member, but I was simply do what others missed or did not see, and that is question it and ask for verifiable sourcings that substantiate what you were asserting and/or claiming.

As for what you have recently mentioned and posted:

as posted by soficrow
As the referenced article made clear: The needs to provide support to soldiers and their families is one of the main arguments being to used to rationalize larger military appropriations.

FYI - "Rep. Ike Skelton, the ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee, ...charged that the modernizing of equipment was being shortchanged ...Other specific shortfalls, ...include enough money for personnel, families, ..."This approach is short-sighted and ends up hurting the troops," "

And it is from the above that you gathered the below quoted and questioned assertion and/or claim?

as posted by soficrow
Our soldiers are left without armor or air cover, and their families live on food stamps.

seekerof

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The story is getting lost here guys. Here it is again:

1. The Federal Budget being presented tomorrow prioritizes international corporate profits over the safety and health of American people, and US soil. Most of the allocations are funnelled to international corporations, not even American ones. American troops are being dissed in the budget because the military is in transition.

Soon, contract special ops from private, international security corporations will work almost exclusively with robots, instead of US troops. The military budget is allocated to effect this transition.

2. At the same time, America is facing a crisis with Mad Cow and other prion related diseases. This is a real and present danger right here at home, on American soil, right here and right now. Scientific reports are being published almost daily. Prions already are contaminating our water, food and nearly everything else. We do not need to fear boogeyman bioterrorists - only inaction, and bad leadership.

3. The Federal Budget does not deal with this crisis. At all. In fact, it dismantles or cuts funding to the few protections that do exist.



How International Corporations Take Money Away from the Troops


Outsourcing the Pentagon

Privatizing War - How affairs of state are outsourced to corporations beyond public control

Mercenary Firms and War Profiteers 1
Mercenary Firms and War Profiteers 2

Executive Outcomes: A new kind of army for privatized global warfare

Dogs Of War Inc. - A $300 Billion Dollar Business



A Quick Overview of Robot Technology


Microbots: Towards a New Military

The Talon Robot: Ready for Iraq

Fly-eating robot powers itself



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[edit on 6-2-2005 by soficrow]
stupid mistakes - bad urls - must be time for bed
[edit on 6-2-2005 by soficrow]

[edit on 6-2-2005 by soficrow]

It also shows that science programs has dropped from roughly $75 million in FY 2003 to just below $60 million requested for FY 2005. During the same time period, funding for weapons programs at the lab (Los Alamos nuclear program) has increased by about $150 million.

Weapons technology trickles down to the private sector in many ways.

...and it's one of the main arguments being used to increase military spending. Try reading the info...

Here I thought it was just that we were at war...

No argument is really needed. Not even Democrats will vote down increased military spending right now. It's too risky a political move.

It's WAAYYY beyond beef sport. We're looking at contaminated water and water treatment facilities, contaminated food production plants, hospitals, you name it. These suckers have never been regulated - standard decontamination and sterilization procedures don't kill them - and now they're everywhere.

Your making vague claims with weak connections.

very interesting read thouigh some people will be fine with the extravagances the budget has. Military spending should be cut IMO and I think it's wrong for it to rise.

Unrealistic idealism has never kept any nation alive. Like it or not, the entire West's way of life is dependent on military strength.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

It's WAAYYY beyond beef sport. We're looking at contaminated water and water treatment facilities, contaminated food production plants, hospitals, you name it. These suckers have never been regulated - standard decontamination and sterilization procedures don't kill them - and now they're everywhere.

Your making vague claims with weak connections.

You STILL haven't checked the links!!!

Not vague, not weak. Solid.


This is a MAJOR international issue. Just a few highlights from the past couple of days...

Mad Cow-causing Prions Found in All Organs

"Mad Cow" Spreading in Deer and Elk

"Mad Cow" Disease Uses Immune System to Spread in Body


*Infectious agent linked to mad cow disease found in organs other than the brain
www.medicalnewstoday.com...

* Mad cow disease can hit organs other than brain too:
www.newkerala.com...

*Brain-wasting prions found in lab mice surprise scientists
www.theglobeandmail.com...



Please, please read this "Executive Intelligence Review" interview with Colin Lowry, cell biologist and Associate Editor of "21st Century Science & Technology."

Background Information About Prions


More good links at:
Prion Information Primer

The only risk I've seen in any of the links you've given is that prions may eventually get passed onto humans.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
The only risk I've seen in any of the links you've given is that prions may eventually get passed onto humans.

They do get passed on - just not always. Therefor, the statement is "may" get passed on, ie., sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

...Read the material, please.



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Originally posted by soficrow
The Environmental Protection Agency's $8.1 billion would drop by $450 million, or about 6 percent, with most reductions coming in water programs

I think this is cause for great concern. We had some provincial governments in Canada cut funds to water programs, with devastating results. The small town of Walkerton, Ontario had an E. coli outbreak which resulted in seven deaths and close to 50% of the population affected.

Instead, Walkerton began the transition into the town "where those kids died from E. coli." It's not what anyone wanted, but it was the end result. Reporters from around North America descended on the area, trying to get to the bottom of Canada's worst-ever outbreak of E. coli contamination. Seven people died from drinking contaminated water. Hundreds suffered from the symptoms of the disease, not knowing if they too would die.

The impact of discovering that the young and the old in a small Ontario town were dying from drinking town water will reverberate throughout Ontario and the country for years. Premier Harris immediately blamed the former NDP government for loosening water standards. Within a week he had announced public inquiry that wound up laying part of the blame for the Walkerton disaster on cutbacks ordered by the Harris government.

A 60-page study released in November 2001 concluded that the Walkerton water tragedy cost at least $64.5 million and an estimated $155 million, if human suffering was factored in. Each household in the town of 5,000 spent about $4,000 on average as a result of the contamination, for a total of $6.9 million. The study weighed in the costs and benefits of providing safe drinking water.

Don't let them mess with your drinking water, it can have tragic results.

Indepth: Inside Walkerton
Walkerton report highlights
E. coli 0157:H7 in drinking water -- US EPA

Originally posted by Seekerof
Mental Laziness Two...

I find it highly ironic that people can simply make unfounded assertions and claims of this degree, Gools, without adequate proper sourcing.

Did I miss a URL in one of your posts in this thread?

soficrow you bewail that 'the story is getting lost' yet you have the torch!

The STORY is government waste. Pork is nothing more than special interest spending.

Are highways pork?
A long time back the State of Louisiana built a bridge to nowhere, wasted tax dollars - - - more below

Washington, D.C.) - Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW) today named Rep. John Peterson (R-Pa.) and the groundhog Punxsutawney Phil as the December Co-Porkers of the Month for jointly defending a $100,000 federal grant for the Punxsutawney Weather Discovery Center

This is for the goundhog!

a page full of past 'pork.'
NASA insider deals Listing numerous more than 'questionable' diversions of public monies.

Lists like these and the numerous links posted so far in this thread are just the tip of the iceberg.

I posted an ATS thread about the government watchdog (Office of Special Counsel, OSC) being cut back. Not many cared about the thread but the impact on every American is real. OSC, GAO (Government Accounting Office) and very few others rattle saber after saber but nothing changes. As FredT has brought to light in his never ending crusade to cast Boeing in a suffering vein, large industry (super-capitalism) loves Washington.

The American people are raped routinely and don't seem to mind. From a not distant perspective it actually appears that they enjoy it because they generally send the same people back that screwed them last year.

Why doesn't 'the news' report on this more? Two reasons:

firstly, no one really cares,
Secondly, half the bad guys are the sponsors that pay the news institutions to exist.

The other half is the few government people that control the flow of funds.
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soficrow,
On your issue of Bush outsourcing to private security forces in the article
Dogs Of War Inc. – A $300 Billion Dollar Business

You blame Bush yet from that article,

But it’s the privatizing mania of the nineties that really set the ball rolling, opening up the way for a multi-billion dollar business....

Umm wouldnt that put this under Clinton's watch and not Bush's?
Yeah, this trend may be continuing for reasons not examined here, but thats a far cry from pin the tail on Bush.

Also on Mad cow you say,

Mad Cow is linked to heart disease, cancer, obesity, diabetes and more. Heart disease is the #1 killer in America - and 1 in 2 American men will get cancer; 1 in 3 women.
Over 100 million Americans suffer from chronic disabilities. Over 46% of personal bankruptcies in the USA are linked to medical bills.

assuming all of these things are true statements....you try to assemble them to fit your argument, yet you dont show how these pieces are fit together.

mad cow is realted to heart disease, yet you dont show where it is the primary, secondary, or ANY relation to heart disease cases as to the % of those heart problems that can be tied to mad cow....i think because its soo rare that it would barely register compared to other causes of heart disease.
THEN
you try to extrapolate this to the % of bankruptcies caused by ALL medical problems....
a huge stretch that doesnt explain how, other than flimsy linkages, that mad cow is such a big part of those bankruptcies. I doubt this will be found the case as well....

on the overall budget from the president, sure one person may find that something is or is not to their liking...
BUT
BLAME CONGRESS if you dont like the budget thats eventually passed as THEY will have submitted it to Bush...reguardless of his wants on the issue.

This thread appears to be a Bush bash based on some big leaps of info.

Originally posted by CazMedia
soficrow,
On your issue of Bush outsourcing to private security forces in the article
Dogs Of War Inc. – A $300 Billion Dollar Business

You blame Bush yet from that article,

But it’s the privatizing mania of the nineties that really set the ball rolling, opening up the way for a multi-billion dollar business....

Umm wouldnt that put this under Clinton's watch and not Bush's?

In fact, it was the legal environment created by CAFTA then NAFTA that set the privatization ball rolling... But at the core, this is not about parties or presidents, but rather certain corporate special interests who are implementing their own agenda - using whatever tool is handy.

This year it's Bush Jr.

assuming all of these things are true statements....you try to assemble them to fit your argument, yet you dont show how these pieces are fit together.

True - and sorry. The piece is still in development, and being modified as news comes in - not just regarding the budget, but also to fit all the prion news that's coming out. ...Your questions will be answered...


I added a new section this evening - here it is in part...


1. The Federal Budget being presented tomorrow prioritizes international corporate profits over the safety and health of American people, and US soil. Most of the allocations are funnelled to international corporations, not even American ones. American troops are being dissed in the budget because the military is in transition.

Soon, contract special ops from private, international security corporations will work almost exclusively with robots, instead of US troops. The military budget is allocated to effect this transition.

2. At the same time, America is facing a crisis with Mad Cow and other prion related diseases. This is a real and present danger right here at home, on American soil, right here and right now. Scientific reports are being published almost daily. Prions already are contaminating our water, food and nearly everything else. We do not need to fear boogeyman bioterrorists - only inaction, and bad leadership.

3. The Federal Budget does not deal with this crisis. At all. In fact, it dismantles or cuts funding to the few protections that do exist.

.........

There is a Mad Cow Crisis

Reports on Mad Cow and prions are all over the international news lately, although coverage in the USA is censored. Current research confirms scientists' worst fears. There are breakthroughs that provide ways to handle the crisis, but on the surface the news is not good. Here are a few "bad news" highlights from the past few days...

Researchers now have proved conclusively that prions can be created by laboratory techniques. The news has far-reaching political and economic implications. Prions are the misfolded proteins infamous for causing Mad Cow disease. Scientists long have known that many standard laboratory techniques and chemical processes cause proteins to misfold and clump together, or "aggregate." This tendency for proteins to misfold and aggregate has frustrated researchers, and chemical and drug manufacturers for half a century. Until now, prion researchers have not proved conclusively that these artificially created misfolded proteins could be infectious.

...prion researchers have little doubt that most misfolded prions are man-made, or result from human activities. Now they can prove it. ...Chemical and drug manufacturers spew huge quantities of misfolded aggregate proteins into the environment, which may account for new epidemic strains.

Mad Cow-type Prions Created in Lab


"A new study confirms that prions, the infectious proteins that cause Mad Cow disease are found throughout the body. Organs previously thought to be free of prions are now known to contain them, as well as muscle, skin and blood vessels. Yale and University of Zurich researchers report that super-imposed infections play a role in causing prions to spread through the body. This study and other current research appears to validate scientists previous claims that "subclinical" prion infections are common, and may underlie epidemic rising rates of heart disease, obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure and various chronic disabilities."

Mad Cow-causing Prions Found in All Organs


Prions hijack the immune system, and use it to spread through the body. Super-imposed infections "somehow help the prions to replicate, and to spread to the parts of the body being targeted by the immune reaction."

"Mad Cow" Disease Uses Immune System to Spread in Body

One assumption lies at the root of efforts to keep the meat we eat safe from mad cow disease: that tissues beyond an animal's brain, spinal cord and immune system are free of the prions that cause the disease.

(Now) Researchers have found that if an animal falls ill with another infection, its immune response can carry large numbers of prions to organs throughout its body. ..."The rules no longer apply," warns pathologist Adriano Aguzzi at Zurich University Hospital, Switzerland, who led the research.

"If the animal has an additional infection in the body, the prions are no longer confined to the areas where they normally are," explains Surachai Supattapone, an expert in infectious diseases at the Dartmouth Medical School in Hanover, New Hampshire. ...The researchers believe that the cells involved in the inflammatory response somehow help the prions to replicate, and to spread to the parts of the body being targeted by the immune reaction.

Prions and the Immune System

The implications of this information are far reaching and difficult to grasp all at once. First, it shows that no meat is safe from an infected animal. Second, it helps explain the appearance of new diseases, and growing epidemics in the USA and around the world of diseases like cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes stroke and probably, AIDS.

The "chronic wasting disease" epidemic in deer and elk gives us an hint about how widespread prion diseases are in the USA. "Chronic wasting disease" is caused by a specific infectious prion strain, related to "Mad Cow" disease. It now is found in wild herds in Wyoming and Colorado, and also Nebraska, New Mexico, Illinois, South Dakota, Utah and Wisconsin. It has spread to domestic herds in Colorado, Montana and other states.

"Mad Cow" Spreading in Deer and Elk



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I'd just like to know how long it'll be before we can just dismiss this as nonsense. How long before people don't start dying off before that happens?

I also dont understand the point of this discussion on the budget submitted ny President Bush....

While Prions indeed seem to be an insideous situation....
and certantly soficrow has provided alot of evidence to show where this can be a problem....

The magnitude of this problem has not manifest to the level where the feds would have to include special anti-prion funding for it...
hence
i fail to see how then youve condemed the budget proposal based off of this.

I hesitate to lable this a bush bash, but its close.
at least there are some tangibles being used to raise questions on the budget....

I still think this anti-prion crusade isnt at the level where it needs priority over other budgetary items, or somehow makes Bush's proposal untennable.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
I'd just like to know how long it'll be before we can just dismiss this as nonsense. How long before people don't start dying off before that happens?

Once prions hit the brain they kill quickly - but their spread to the brain may take decades. Along the way they might infect virtually any part of the body. ...This "subclinical" stage of prion diseases is not acknowledged officially - but it does result in massive disabilities.

The first prion disease to affect humans also is not acknowledged officially as a prion disease. It's called fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD), and causes connective tissue stem cell proteins to misfold into a-smooth muscle actin (a-SMA). ...This results in the stem cells, called fibroblasts, to mutate into myofibroblasts. ...First cells, then tissues, then organs and other body parts and systems are slowly destroyed.

FMD eventually leads to death from heart attack, cancer, stroke or less commonly, from kidney failure, congestive heart failure, dissected arteries or burst aneurysms.

* The causes of death in patients with carotid FMD were heart attack (44.4%), cancer (33.3%) and stroke (22.2%) – now the three leading causes of death in the USA, in that order.
“Fibromuscular dysplasia of the internal carotid artery: long-term surgical results.” J Cardiovasc Surg (Torino). 1993 Dec;34(6):465-72. Moreau P, Albat B, Thevenet A. Service de Chirurgie Thoracique et Cardio-Vasculaire, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire, Montpellier, France. PMID: 8300709

Cancer, heart disease and stroke are the leading causes of death in the USA today. I in 2 American men will get cancer in their lifetime; 1 in 3 women will. Once considered “diseases of civilization,” cancer and heart disease are now epidemic around the world. The trends were identified in the early 1990’s.

"Trends for mortality from heart disease, stroke, lung cancer, and, less distinctly, cancer other than lung cancer, tend to be similar in different countries, ... suggesting the existence of common causes amenable to the same preventive measures."
* "Heart disease, cancer, and stroke mortality trends and their interrelations. An international perspective." Circulation. 1994 Jul;90(1):574-82. Thom TJ, Epstein FH. Epidemiology and Biometry Program, National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md. PMID: 8026045
circ.ahajournals.org...;90/1/574

FMD is seldom diagnosed before a life threatening “event” occurs, and 65% of reported cases in the USA are diagnosed in autopsy, with an incidence rate of 1.1% in adults.

“FMD frequency in the USA: incidence of new cases in adults diagnosed by angiography – 0.6%; diagnosed in autopsy – 1.1%.”
www.emedicine.com...

NOTE: Incidence means new cases found yearly, presented as a % of the total population.
Also see Puri, PMID: 10334397.

Here's a table that puts together the stats for reported deaths with FMD incidence in autopsy:

YEAR - DEATHS - TOTAL POP - EST ADULT POP (75%) - 1.1% ADULT POP: FMD incid in autopsy

1999 - 2,391,399 - 279,295,000 - 209,471,250 - 2,304,184
1998 - 2,337,256 - 276,115,000 - 207,086,250 - 2,277,949
1997 - 2,314,245 - 272,912,000 - 204,684,000 - 2,251,524
1996 - 2,314,690 - 269,667,000 - 202,250,250 - 2,224,750
1995 - 2,312,132 - 266,557,000 - 199,917,750 - 2,199,095

Source: Population: Census; Reported Deaths; World Health Organization.

As you can see, nearly all of the reported deaths in the USA also are diagnosed with FMD in autopsy – so the obvious conclusion is that nearly 100% of the American population is infected with FMD by adulthood. ...and FMD is caused by a misfolded protein, which is what infectious prions are...



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[edit on 7-2-2005 by soficrow]

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The Mad Cow crisis casts a wide net. For a quick review of one facet, check this out.


Did Chemical and Drug Industries Create Mad Cow


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