A question for the Pro-Life crowd.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Better question deadlyhope...

Hey pro-lifers.... How come you are happy to prevent women having abortions, but not happy to pay for state aid to ensure that no matter the economic status of the parent, the child never suffers a single injustice or inadequacy of upbringing as a result of the parent being forced to bring the child to term?

How much money are you prepared to spend perfecting the adoption system, and how much work are you prepared to do to ensure that those who interfere with children never get out of jail, even if they have committed but one offence in that regard? Are you prepared to empty your prisons of all the pot smokers and other people who should not be in jail, and replace those spaces with ACTUAL threats to your children and the children of others?

And hey, while we are at it pro-lifers, are you prepared to start blaming the rapists rather than the raped? Are you also prepared to ensure that children have access to the best, most unbiased, therefore most secular textbooks at school, full of the most current and up to the minute scientific information? Are you prepared to make sacrifices so that not only will these children be born, but have lives worth living, rather than Dickensian nightmares whose only end comes not in finally awaking from slumber, but taking their last breaths at the end of a drug filled pipe, or a switchblade, or a bullet, or simply by abuse, malnutrition, or getting beaten to death in the street by strangers, or taken off the street by a sicko that current laws, ones pro-lifers vote for more often than not, cannot keep in jail and away from targets of their predatory nature?

No? I did not think so... so why are you aggravated by abortion? I mean, surely pro-lifers understand that to bring a child to term in a less than survivable situation is asking for messed up, damaged, scared kids to be walking the world, to become messed up, damaged and scared adults, who will not necessarily appreciate the opportunity to live out the life sentence to a prison called despair, that pro-lifers prudish, backward, regressive attitudes have bought about, have forced them into.

Why is it that pro-lifers also tend to be the sort who preach hate against people of lesser social status than themselves, when the problems in that lower social status tend to be directly related to how much access an individuals parents had to choice? Why is it that pro-lifers understand nothing, absolutely nothing, about cause and effect?

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: deadlyhope

Better question deadlyhope...

Hey pro-lifers.... How come you are happy to prevent women having abortions, but not happy to pay for state aid to ensure that no matter the economic status of the parent, the child never suffers a single injustice or inadequacy of upbringing as a result of the parent being forced to bring the child to term?

How much money are you prepared to spend perfecting the adoption system, and how much work are you prepared to do to ensure that those who interfere with children never get out of jail, even if they have committed but one offence in that regard? Are you prepared to empty your prisons of all the pot smokers and other people who should not be in jail, and replace those spaces with ACTUAL threats to your children and the children of others?

And hey, while we are at it pro-lifers, are you prepared to start blaming the rapists rather than the raped? Are you also prepared to ensure that children have access to the best, most unbiased, therefore most secular textbooks at school, full of the most current and up to the minute scientific information? Are you prepared to make sacrifices so that not only will these children be born, but have lives worth living, rather than Dickensian nightmares whose only end comes not in finally awaking from slumber, but taking their last breaths at the end of a drug filled pipe, or a switchblade, or a bullet, or simply by abuse, malnutrition, or getting beaten to death in the street by strangers, or taken off the street by a sicko that current laws, ones pro-lifers vote for more often than not, cannot keep in jail and away from targets of their predatory nature?

No? I did not think so... so why are you aggravated by abortion? I mean, surely pro-lifers understand that to bring a child to term in a less than survivable situation is asking for messed up, damaged, scared kids to be walking the world, to become messed up, damaged and scared adults, who will not necessarily appreciate the opportunity to live out the life sentence to a prison called despair, that pro-lifers prudish, backward, regressive attitudes have bought about, have forced them into.

Why is it that pro-lifers also tend to be the sort who preach hate against people of lesser social status than themselves, when the problems in that lower social status tend to be directly related to how much access an individuals parents had to choice? Why is it that pro-lifers understand nothing, absolutely nothing, about cause and effect?

Why do you have so much hate for anyone that doesn't believe in abortions? Why is it that you categorize everyone that disagrees with abortions as some rich guy that thinks he's better than everyone else? Why do you think pro-life people don't agree with abortions for women that were raped? Seems all you have are categories to place people in you disagree with, when reality will show you people's opinions widely vary. I'd say you were triggered into oblivion in regards to this topic.

a reply to: Middleoftheroad

maybe is disdain for those who chose to give a rat's behind for anyone outside of them and theirs?

Why do you think pro-life people don't agree with abortions for women that were raped?

why do you think that all pro-choice people are pro-abortions...
why will a catholic hospital chose to let women suffer during a miscarriage till the heartbeat stops before intervening thus endangering the welfare of the mother?
why was it when that little nine year old girl that was raped by her father (maybe it was step father) did all those prolife people come onto a thread here on ats about it insisting that she should have to have those twins when it hit the news even though there was a whole crew of doctors and nurses insisting that she should have to carry them to term? why were those doctors and nurses...AND THE MOTHER of the nine year old child excommunicated from the catholic church? why did Valentina Milluzzo and Savita Halappanavar die???

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Middleoftheroad

maybe is disdain for those who chose to give a rat's behind for anyone outside of them and theirs?

Why do you think pro-life people don't agree with abortions for women that were raped?

why do you think that all pro-choice people are pro-abortions...
why will a catholic hospital chose to let women suffer during a miscarriage till the heartbeat stops before intervening thus endangering the welfare of the mother?
why was it when that little nine year old girl that was raped by her father (maybe it was step father) did all those prolife people come onto a thread here on ats about it insisting that she should have to have those twins when it hit the news even though there was a whole crew of doctors and nurses insisting that she should have to carry them to term? why were those doctors and nurses...AND THE MOTHER of the nine year old child excommunicated from the catholic church? why did Valentina Milluzzo and Savita Halappanavar die???

I didn't say anything about pro-choice or anyone that agrees with it, so what are you on about? You would have to ask those specific Catholic people. I'm not religious, so I don't know their rules for being a member of their church. I'd be willing to bet you took the most extreme case and used it for your argument though.

How I feel, is every slut on the corner shouldn't be able to walk in and abort a baby for no reason. If medical issues arise during pregnancy and are a risk to the mother, then yes I feel abortion should be a choice for the mother. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, then yes they should be able to get an abortion. If the neighborhood hoe gets pregnant sleeping around like they do, then no they shouldn't be able to get an abortion. Obviously, its not all black and white like most in this thread argue it out to be.

a reply to: Middleoftheroad

Not at all.

Nice attempt at deflection though.

The simple fact of the matter is, that if you look into the recent history of the discussion on abortion, you will find countless cases of women being forced to bring their baby into the world because of some draconian policy or other, you will find women being excommunicated from their religions because of abortion, you will find science denying lackwits and hand wringing, morally degenerate morons insisting that every, EVERY child be bought to term, regardless of the threat to the mother, regardless of how terrible of a life that child might be assumed to be on the way to having, no matter how the parents feel about having a child, or having a child now, and the simple fact of the matter is, only the right to choice has any legitimacy.

Pro-lifers bomb hospitals and family planning centres. They stand there trying to guilt trip women in front of family planning centres, doctors surgeries, and hospitals. Pro-lifers dominate the religious spaces, reinforcing irreligious hate speech against people responsible enough to know that this is not necessarily the right time to bring up a child, and meanwhile, people just defend these things, by saying "Not all pro-lifers this, not all pro-lifers that". I care not. That ANYONE deems it their business to decide on a womans behalf what will, and will not happen with her body, is an absolute disgrace, and cannot be acceptable in a modern society.

The church and the state must be separated, to such a degree that law is never written with religion in mind, never affected by faith, nor the opinions of people who hold one. I say this as a deeply Christian man, what has been done over the years to females by the Christian Conservative, pro-life movement is utterly horrific, and brings shame upon the institution of faith which was raised in the name of Christ.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Middleoftheroad

Not at all.

Nice attempt at deflection though.

The simple fact of the matter is, that if you look into the recent history of the discussion on abortion, you will find countless cases of women being forced to bring their baby into the world because of some draconian policy or other, you will find women being excommunicated from their religions because of abortion, you will find science denying lackwits and hand wringing, morally degenerate morons insisting that every, EVERY child be bought to term, regardless of the threat to the mother, regardless of how terrible of a life that child might be assumed to be on the way to having, no matter how the parents feel about having a child, or having a child now, and the simple fact of the matter is, only the right to choice has any legitimacy.

Pro-lifers bomb hospitals and family planning centres. They stand there trying to guilt trip women in front of family planning centres, doctors surgeries, and hospitals. Pro-lifers dominate the religious spaces, reinforcing irreligious hate speech against people responsible enough to know that this is not necessarily the right time to bring up a child, and meanwhile, people just defend these things, by saying "Not all pro-lifers this, not all pro-lifers that". I care not. That ANYONE deems it their business to decide on a womans behalf what will, and will not happen with her body, is an absolute disgrace, and cannot be acceptable in a modern society.

The church and the state must be separated, to such a degree that law is never written with religion in mind, never affected by faith, nor the opinions of people who hold one. I say this as a deeply Christian man, what has been done over the years to females by the Christian Conservative, pro-life movement is utterly horrific, and brings shame upon the institution of faith which was raised in the name of Christ.

I can agree with most of what you say, but still in disagreement on the categorizing of it. Not all pro-lifers are hellbent on all fetuses being born. You are using the most extreme cases and putting everyone in that category. That's like putting all leftists into the Antifa category or labeling all liberals as Hillary supporters, when we all know it isn't true.

originally posted by: Middleoftheroad

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Middleoftheroad

maybe is disdain for those who chose to give a rat's behind for anyone outside of them and theirs?

Why do you think pro-life people don't agree with abortions for women that were raped?

why do you think that all pro-choice people are pro-abortions...
why will a catholic hospital chose to let women suffer during a miscarriage till the heartbeat stops before intervening thus endangering the welfare of the mother?
why was it when that little nine year old girl that was raped by her father (maybe it was step father) did all those prolife people come onto a thread here on ats about it insisting that she should have to have those twins when it hit the news even though there was a whole crew of doctors and nurses insisting that she should have to carry them to term? why were those doctors and nurses...AND THE MOTHER of the nine year old child excommunicated from the catholic church? why did Valentina Milluzzo and Savita Halappanavar die???

I didn't say anything about pro-choice or anyone that agrees with it, so what are you on about? You would have to ask those specific Catholic people. I'm not religious, so I don't know their rules for being a member of their church. I'd be willing to bet you took the most extreme case and used it for your argument though.

How I feel, is every slut on the corner shouldn't be able to walk in and abort a baby for no reason. If medical issues arise during pregnancy and are a risk to the mother, then yes I feel abortion should be a choice for the mother. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, then yes they should be able to get an abortion. If the neighborhood hoe gets pregnant sleeping around like they do, then no they shouldn't be able to get an abortion. Obviously, its not all black and white like most in this thread argue it out to be.

So, you're pro-choice sometimes. But if a "slut/hoe" gets pregnant the punishment should be parenthood? Great attitude!

a reply to: Middleoftheroad

How I feel, is every slut on the corner shouldn't be able to walk in and abort a baby for no reason. If medical issues arise during pregnancy and are a risk to the mother, then yes I feel abortion should be a choice for the mother. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, then yes they should be able to get an abortion. If the neighborhood hoe gets pregnant sleeping around like they do, then no they shouldn't be able to get an abortion. Obviously, its not all black and white like most in this thread argue it out to be.

I take the most extreme cases because in those countries that have stricter abortion bans, and even those hospitals in this country that are allowed to use "religion" to exempt themselves from having to follow the safest and medically recommended procedures, IT IS THOSE EXTREME CASES THAT SUFFER AND SOMETIMES DIE!! and, neither you or me can know for sure if any given women opting for an abortion happens to be that "slut on the corner" you seem to want to portray her as being, or someone who happens to be classed as an "extreme case" according to whoever gets to decide on those matters. neither do I think that every women should have to lay out her sad life story in hopes that her council of judges that are appointed to decide such matters will see her need as being worthy!

a reply to: Middleoftheroad

Middleoftheroad,

Thats all very well, but pro-life, even the most moderate and sensible version of it, still holds that a woman has no right to decide the fate of her body when it comes to whether or not a baby will come out of it, or holds that if she IS to have that control, she may only exercise it by use of contraception or refusal to engage in vaginal intercourse.

No one has the right to make that choice for her, but she DOES have the right to make the choice as to whether a baby will be born as a result of her choices, and anyone trying to take that right away from ANYONE for ANY reason, no matter what people think of the behaviour of the mother (which they have no right to judge, under either the law of Christ or the law of man, and can therefore shut up), is an enemy of liberty and must either accept that fact and retrain themselves, or place themselves against the very foundations of rights, liberties and freedom. That is not a stance which has any legitimacy to it whatsoever.

The mothers rights trump all others in every such scenario.

I have tried to ask this question as nicely as I could, presented the facts. I myself am pro-life for myself but pro-choice on a legal standpoint.

The answer usually is along the lines of...

~~If everyone could become more Christian and wait till marriage to have sex and stop spreading legs then there would be less abortions.~~

After providing the fact that abortions have decreased significantly under Obamacare which allows free birth control they say...

~~ We should not have to pay for birth control or abortions (abortions are NEVER paid for by gov't but they still believe they are paying for the abortions). If you want free birth control for those in need, then you should donate money to the cause, it should not be forced~~

When I ask would you like abortions to be lessened a little due to donations or significantly due to free birth control, they usually get confused and say something along the lines of...

~~birth control should not be free, people need to learn abstinence, providing free birth control brings this farther from god~~


My point...it is pointless talking with these low level thinkers

a reply to: veracity
you forgot one...
maternity care should be included in insurance, if a women wants it, she should have to pay for an extra rider....

they seem to want to forget the part that men play in this... how they are half the problem, and then turn around and gripe about how money is taken from the checks to pay for child support, which in many cases, don't amount enough to even pay for the child care needed so the mother can have a steady job!

well, birth control fails, women have been locked up in the US for having miscarriages, women are left to suffer in some of our hospitals when their pregnancies go south, once a women becomes a mother, their boss will look at that child as being a hindrance to her performance at work, her earning potential will diminish, if she happens to need to ask the gov't for help, she will be considered a leech. maybe, just maybe, women, young, old, married, or single, should start seeing a sting of long term absintence as the answer to some of these problems!!
JUST SAY NO.... TO SEX!!!!

a reply to: dawnstar

Ah, you mean sacrifice ones long term mental health, by indulging in physical loneliness for extended periods, purely because you fear judgement by your peers?

You realise that in people with normal sex drives, that particular lifestyle choice can have DRASTICALLY bad consequences, up to and including the onset of suicidal tendencies? I do not think that is realistic, or indeed healthy at all.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Middleoftheroad

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Middleoftheroad

maybe is disdain for those who chose to give a rat's behind for anyone outside of them and theirs?

Why do you think pro-life people don't agree with abortions for women that were raped?

why do you think that all pro-choice people are pro-abortions...
why will a catholic hospital chose to let women suffer during a miscarriage till the heartbeat stops before intervening thus endangering the welfare of the mother?
why was it when that little nine year old girl that was raped by her father (maybe it was step father) did all those prolife people come onto a thread here on ats about it insisting that she should have to have those twins when it hit the news even though there was a whole crew of doctors and nurses insisting that she should have to carry them to term? why were those doctors and nurses...AND THE MOTHER of the nine year old child excommunicated from the catholic church? why did Valentina Milluzzo and Savita Halappanavar die???

I didn't say anything about pro-choice or anyone that agrees with it, so what are you on about? You would have to ask those specific Catholic people. I'm not religious, so I don't know their rules for being a member of their church. I'd be willing to bet you took the most extreme case and used it for your argument though.

How I feel, is every slut on the corner shouldn't be able to walk in and abort a baby for no reason. If medical issues arise during pregnancy and are a risk to the mother, then yes I feel abortion should be a choice for the mother. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, then yes they should be able to get an abortion. If the neighborhood hoe gets pregnant sleeping around like they do, then no they shouldn't be able to get an abortion. Obviously, its not all black and white like most in this thread argue it out to be.

So, you're pro-choice sometimes. But if a "slut/hoe" gets pregnant the punishment should be parenthood? Great attitude!

I know you guys are dying to throw me in a category, so put me in whatever category makes you feel better about yourself.

a reply to: Middleoftheroad

you usually put yourself in the category, no one throws you in there

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Middleoftheroad

How I feel, is every slut on the corner shouldn't be able to walk in and abort a baby for no reason. If medical issues arise during pregnancy and are a risk to the mother, then yes I feel abortion should be a choice for the mother. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, then yes they should be able to get an abortion. If the neighborhood hoe gets pregnant sleeping around like they do, then no they shouldn't be able to get an abortion. Obviously, its not all black and white like most in this thread argue it out to be.

I take the most extreme cases because in those countries that have stricter abortion bans, and even those hospitals in this country that are allowed to use "religion" to exempt themselves from having to follow the safest and medically recommended procedures, IT IS THOSE EXTREME CASES THAT SUFFER AND SOMETIMES DIE!! and, neither you or me can know for sure if any given women opting for an abortion happens to be that "slut on the corner" you seem to want to portray her as being, or someone who happens to be classed as an "extreme case" according to whoever gets to decid on those matters. neither do I think that every women should have to lay out her sad life story in hopes that her council of judges that are appointed to decide such matters will see her need as being worthy!

If you're going to abort a baby, there should be good reason for it. Thats my opinion. If you looked up the statistics for abortions, only a very small percentage are done due to medical reasons or rape. Like less than 10% of them if I remember right. The high majority of abortions are due to irresponsibility.

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Middleoftheroad

you usually put yourself in the category, no one throws you in there

Actually its the reverse. I haven't stated I'm pro-life/choice because honestly I'm in the middle somewhere with my own opinions on it. But, considering your "low-level" thinkers comment. I'd say you think you're opinion on abortions is superior to others opinions, so I won't waste any more time debating with you.

a reply to: TrueBrit

you fear judgement by your peers?

it's more like I fear that if we let these moral majority whatever halfwits continue on the course they care going, we are gonna start seeing women needlessly dying, imprisoned, and being harmed! but, I get what you are saying, I just am betting on society going to heck quicker than people getting to the point of complete sanity and backtracking on the to a kinder approach to women. if not, well, it's what the right to life group seems to want, that's what they keep saying so I don't think they should have anything to complain about!!
don't want to a have kid, just avoid the sex!

a reply to: Middleoftheroad

there are probably less late term abortions, and yet, the right to life seem to want to make it seem that every abortion is late term...
and, is that 10% less significant than any other person out there? shouldn't they have the right to the best and safest healthcare out there?

originally posted by: Middleoftheroad

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Middleoftheroad

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Middleoftheroad

maybe is disdain for those who chose to give a rat's behind for anyone outside of them and theirs?

Why do you think pro-life people don't agree with abortions for women that were raped?

why do you think that all pro-choice people are pro-abortions...
why will a catholic hospital chose to let women suffer during a miscarriage till the heartbeat stops before intervening thus endangering the welfare of the mother?
why was it when that little nine year old girl that was raped by her father (maybe it was step father) did all those prolife people come onto a thread here on ats about it insisting that she should have to have those twins when it hit the news even though there was a whole crew of doctors and nurses insisting that she should have to carry them to term? why were those doctors and nurses...AND THE MOTHER of the nine year old child excommunicated from the catholic church? why did Valentina Milluzzo and Savita Halappanavar die???

I didn't say anything about pro-choice or anyone that agrees with it, so what are you on about? You would have to ask those specific Catholic people. I'm not religious, so I don't know their rules for being a member of their church. I'd be willing to bet you took the most extreme case and used it for your argument though.

How I feel, is every slut on the corner shouldn't be able to walk in and abort a baby for no reason. If medical issues arise during pregnancy and are a risk to the mother, then yes I feel abortion should be a choice for the mother. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, then yes they should be able to get an abortion. If the neighborhood hoe gets pregnant sleeping around like they do, then no they shouldn't be able to get an abortion. Obviously, its not all black and white like most in this thread argue it out to be.

So, you're pro-choice sometimes. But if a "slut/hoe" gets pregnant the punishment should be parenthood? Great attitude!

I know you guys are dying to throw me in a category, so put me in whatever category makes you feel better about yourself.

Okay then! I'm gonna say that you're pro-choice with exceptions to whores and sluts, who you think should be punished by being forced into motherhood.

a reply to: dawnstar

All I am going to say about that, is that forcing women into a position where they may only have intercourse when about the business of procreation, is not freeing them, but as much of an imprisonment as insisting that every zygote be bought to fruition.

Again, the situation ought to be thus.

Men and women get together and have sexual intercourse or not if they want. Any conception that occurs as a result will be weighed and thought about by the mother, and if she is not cool with having that baby, then that baby she will not have. If anyone tries to force her hand and make her have that baby, that person should be taken away by the authorities for trying to enforce a moral standard she does not share, nor is she under any obligation to share. Simple. Basically, mess not with a womans right to choose her fate and that of her body, at any time, before, during or after having intercourse, and do NOT mess with a womans right to HAVE intercourse. That... that is just dark ages crap... I mean, I am an old fashioned lad in many respects, but that is so old school I think you would have to have known Moses to have any idea what it means in practice!