Baddogma's Other Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

a reply to: Peeple

It entirely depends.

Well I think we all now know that the church once standardised by the Romans became, like the Romans, highly syncrenistic. Mary of course acquires elements of the Mother Goddess, while many of the saints are local heroes and goddesses re-deified (sp?). The three-faced gods and goddesses inform the three-in-one god. What may or may not have been new and innovative (in the West at least) about the early Christians (and other dissenting sects) was soon lost through assimilation into a consumerist society and was transformed into a tool of conquest, and to a certain degree, as a weapon of war.

So yeah, following the flock is not my impression of what the first century Christians were about but the "message" itself is universal, we as a species are prone to cults of personality, focus too readily on the messenger. It obviously must be more complicated than that but possibly not, possibly it's a bug in our systems.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Yeah no the Romans are really not the problem. They incorporated them on their way to an one-empire-religion completely with all their stories and origins it's an entirely Christian thing to distort and rewrite and practice cultural appropriation to extingiush every trace of its original meaning for no other reason than control.
And it's also not because of the audience it was a complete top-down decision. The 'assimilation into a consumerist society' didn't really happen, those are what we call new-age druids & shamans.

What made early Christianity successful is 'the secret' in freemasonry & co: the community. I'd say that stopped working when it got too big & hierarchical it was never intended that way.
But a great example how religion distracts from God instead of being a path towards, or the search.
Understanding (or at least trying to) God/-s and all those non-human entities can I believe only be accomplished in an un-biased permeation of the quint-essences of all religions as far as we still remember them plus some.

a reply to: Peeple

It was Rome's huge appetite for goods, as well as grain, that drove empire and expansion. They were the first of the mass consumers, though they only adapted, on a wider and industrialised scale what other empires had done before them. I don't think the church rewrote, initially, out of a need to control (other than the narrative) but more out of an ignorance and superstition that emerged from the dark ages. That other traditions of learning continued through the European dark ages, in the Islamic world for example, as well as China and other parts of Asia allows us, in the present time, a much clearer perspective than they had at Nicea and what is also apparent, from that same perspective, is that they didn't understand the texts at all for the most-part.

I like the "secret" of Christianity being community though and it did, in those first centuries, bring together those who were socially isolated (women) or socially disenfrancised (indentured workers and slaves).

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Well I have read the possibility of Roman expansion being kind of a psychologically abetted self-propelled development, because in its infancies it was more often at the receiving end of the ... battle stick (? if you'd have a suggestion how to say that in less stupid that'd be great)
So it became a strategy aggression as defense and since they didn't have experience or a long-term plan in those early years what to do with the new satelite tribes they basically just looted and since there weren't really taxes or anything (lack of bureaucracy) they just made an agreement how many men they had to provide, so it snowballed.
I paraphrased but the theory makes a lot of sense to me.

And with the church ... I didn't think that much about it to be either way that much invested. I've met nice people, priests and monks believers who were very nice and lovely, it's not for me.
If my life'd depend on it I couldn't bring myself to call some human no matter how great God.
And that seems to be a requirement. Which is in itself funny because it was what made the early Christians martyrs they refused too to call humans (ceasars) gods.
And I know there was an inner struggle in Christianity too about that sooo I can exactly pin down at what point in history Christianity lost me.
325
kind of funny


Was that what you meant with Nicaea?

a reply to: Peeple

But don't they all start out like that? Greece certainly had a similar gestational period, and then post- and contributing to the fall of Rome, the Visigoths similarly take over that mantel and slowly whittle the tribes down to a single entity which becomes a powerhouse against the status quo. This, I suppose, is exactly what is meant by history repeating itself, once established the city-state becomes like a contagion. The needs of the city-state, going all the way back to Sumeria, require trade to maintain the food supply to it's dependents and to meet it's labour requirements. And part and parcel of that is to pay as little as possible for those commodities which requires exploitation. To do that Sumeria seeded the idea of social stratification by lifting up and providing protection to those willing to exploit the resources of their own people or neighbouring people - particularly as slaves - created vassal states, king-ship and warrior-castes (as well as the all-important state-sanctioned prostitution).

My spelling is awful sorry, yes the Nicaean Creed was what I was referring to.

I'm currently reading Mushrooms, Myths and Mithras: the drug cult that civilized Europe. It is quite annoying but that aside, we don't really create new stories, we just rewrite and borrow from structures and characterisations, and those characters evolve (or devolve) along with us. Jesus is nothing like Mithras, in words or deeds, and yet there was an amalgamation somewhere in the minds of men between the two that enabled them to transfer loyalty from one to the other. A familiarity? But either way, the transistion between the Jesus of Acts and the Gospels, and the Jesus that emerges from Nicaea, is Mithraic and consequently, thoroughly male.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Mithras shows up a lot lately. I must admit I know nothing about that. Didn't even google him.

And so sorry I am a bit distracted Tolstoi War & Peace.
But if you guys want to say something, please just do, I check in to read, just don't feel like I got much to say right now.

XOXO

a reply to: Peeple

I guessed at a cool band name and found these guys...

Pleiades - Ultra



In an emo mood...

a reply to: Peeple

My brother bought the book and passed it to me first which was a nice synchronicity for me since I had been making tiny little Liberty Caps with clay at the time however the book has turned into a major pain in my bottom. The authors make some extraordinary connections and a number of huge leaps, much cherry picking and at least a little intellectual dishonesty BUT beneath all that crap there are some real gems of information, it's just going to take a major dissection to extract them from all the baggage and see what it actually describes. Hence, annoying.

War and Peace? That's quite the commitment. I know I started it but I can't remember if I ever made it all the way through, I suspect not. Perhaps you can let me know how it ends.



Take care xx

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Well I've made a little detour, book 2 right after the rich heir has his freemason ceremony I started watching The Wire.
Culture shock....lol

I've tried to order a new armchair but after 5 years of lockdown delivery times are through the roof. Is that everywhere or just here?

From what I gather not much is known about Mithras' cult just that it was all about secret handshakes and the ranks went by planetary/zodiac order.
Not much written mostly just temples... if you write a book about that you obviously have to run with it a bit or it's not much more than 20 pages or so.

a reply to: Peeple

Has it only been five years? The only delivery issues I have had during the lockdown expanse is with Ikea. They were all over the place. That was early on though. My kiln arrived within three days and only took that long because I ordered it on a Saturday. Perhaps your armchair is made to order?

Oh man, The Wire broke me. (Dominic West aside) It is a beautiful, beautiful piece of work.



The book is simply terrible. I don't know why anyone would even want to produce something like that. When they get to the bit where they tie it all in, in a continuous tradition to Freemasonry I was just beside myself. All it is is what you were saying a few pages back, those people who say it's all drugs. This is them. And, certainly in this instance, they are wrong. Glaringly. Delusionally if they actually believe there is any academic value in the crap they are writing BUT I am absolutely sure that there are ample uninquiring minds who will lap it up wholesale and be none the wiser, I'm just glad it was my brother's money and not mine that was wasted on it.

It is a strong argument for book burning.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

You're funny.
You know what's beautiful?
SPRING
Snowdrops, crocus, daisies everywhere! Not much green yet but a promise it will come soon.

It's difficult. You find something that speaks to you and often... it's only a sentence that's worth to share but you get excited and it becomes a book.
Has happened to me too before. It's not that problematic as long as nobody believes. I'd say.
I'm not into it, you didn't like it but for some people it might serve as can opener. And isn't that kind of the only thing we can ever really hope to achieve, make someone switch perspective and start thinking?

We all only got a learner's license, right?

a reply to: Peeple

I find human dignity in adversity beautiful, but yes, the crocus are stunning right now. The snowdrops and winter aconites are just wilting but the daffodils are rapidly filling the void. Most fabulous time of the year. Crisp, promising mornings and the saps are clearly rising.

I don't know, I've read some papers recently regarding parapsychology and the such, and there seems to be a complaint that publishers are responsible for much of the dearth of actual, comprehensive research in so-called fringe subject matter. They want a book to say a certain thing and they don't care how it is said, or what has to be fudged in order for it to say that, they just know what sells and that is the business they are in not academic publishing. I can see how that's a powerful and persuasive force. The subjects are fringe in terms of the scientific or academic community (though the idea of fringe is really an illusion) but the audience is pretty catholic and mainstream who consume it. It is just a product and I know that I am expecting too much. What does distortion of information open up for anyone? The "truth" that we don't know but these are the options opens up debate absolutely and for sure, but this is the opposite to that. John Allegro developed an incredible hypothesis in Sacred Mushroom. Ruck et al barely reference it except where it confirms their bias, they're far more inclined towards R Gordon Wasson but then completely ignore his whole exposition of mushroom philiac and phobic cultures because to do so would negate their argument.

I suppose they're just trying to earn a living, support a lifestyle or whatever it is that gets them through the night and able to look themselves in the mirror. I don't blame those that don't know any better just those that should. But, ultimately, different priorities.

It's not my money that's been wasted - time? I still learnt something.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

I can't read most of those books anyways. I liked the Prophecies of Celestine when I was young, because if I remember it right it was pretty 'hands on' and a novel with no claim to hard facts, but an example that one can learn spiritual matters only by experience not by words.
wiki

The only way to talk about these things is in fiction. And that might be a little frustrating sometimes, because we all want hard proof and to convince others, but truth in this case is at this point not possible, there's no objectivity in subjective experience and all we can is share 'it' from memory filtered through our bias and wishes.
We can only know if we can achieve oneness in a sense of true hive-mind like 'Gaia' in Asimov.
Humanity has a long way to go. Unless there's something like a massive, global, spiritual EMP that hooks us all up, but...
Imagine what that would look like with all the hate, the suffering, it would be unbearable for our tiny minds.

I grew up kind of Hippy and new-age-ish, so to me rule number one always was never deal with the spiritual for personal gains.
But what you say is reality. Not just hijacking the narrative for money, also evil horrible things like 'The Secret' are the new normal.
It's just not sexy if you start telling people 'you need to be selfless, practice empathy, serve Earth... because maybe in a few generations it will make mankind better'
That's contrary to what people want. I want to be sure I am chosen, I want this and that car, I want people to admire me...
People just #ing suck.

a reply to: Peeple

Me Peeps...

I am such a looser that I missed that day in February to put you in a diabetic coma by sending you solidified, heart shaped, candy!

Yeah, I suck!

But Dave’s real world is getting on track with family (said it before) and, finally, getting interested in guitar again.

Let’s face it, last year sucked!!

Anyway.., my Tevas are set on “Fox Trot” (nobody can move their body against The Beatles)!!!

-Nowhere Man

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

It's okay. Can't rant against society and culture and at the same time conform to holiday uniformity anyways. So you saved me from hipocrisy.
As long as you're fine honey-poopsy it's all good.

a reply to: Peeple

It's not just that people suck, I've been going over and over the question posed by Adam Curtis - what if people are stupid? I know we have danced with that question before and discussed it other ways but, looking at it differently, as a species thing. Not just some of us, all of us.

So, someone realised in the dark recessess of history, for example, that if you tell men that there is a glorious after-life awaiting them then they will fight harder and longer, even to the death in whatever cause you throw them at. And of course in such a scenario drugs would have been a vital resource in directing experience to that end but as Oliver Cromwell knew millennia later, hardly necessary once such an idea has taken root. Somewhere in between shamanism and the Round-head Christian fundamentalists we can place Constantine, knowing that the vast majority of his fighters had converted to Christianity or had family or lovers who had, and having a realisation/epiphany/vision that would get those fighters fighting to the death for his ends. The rest is just story-making; the crafting of legends, myths and heroes. Something that is in us, a capability to respond to violence with violence when our lives and loved ones are in danger is hijacked, reprogrammed - domesticated - redirected to imaginary or invisible by distance threats. Obviously military personnel themselves go through another level of conditioning, much like a horse that needs "breaking" to take the bit, reigns and saddle, but the rest of us, we have become conditioned too, from birth to comprehend that a chain of command exists and to know our place within it. And all the way to the very top are people going through the motions of what they have been conditioned to do. There is no operator. There is no one behind the curtain. It's all just stupid domesticated sheep taking in turns to play shephard but no one actually knows how to be the shephard because they've always been sheep (and their fathers before them, their father's father etc etc).

Every last one of us, and them, stupid. Accept that and the world we've created suddenly makes a helluva alot more sense. Too few people with too much money and power proliferates the ability of the stupid individual to make stupid messes that endanger our lives and loved ones. And here we are. The system endures because we believe, have faith and hope that someone has the answers and for centuries, millennia even, there has always been someone stupid enough to pretend to have those answers. Dr Ruck is stupid enough to believe in all that, or he is stupid enough to want to exploit all that. Either way - stupid is as stupid does. I'm stupid to let it annoy me, I just expect a little more from someone who is an educator by profession, integrity would be nice, not exploiting the curious would be another.

How stupid of me!

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

How dare you!? I'm super smarties!
I had a bottle of whine yesterday and was drunk rambling about l'état de choses... similiar to what you wrote in less elegant.
"I'm not responsible for the choices other people make"
...and breathe...

You know like 7 years ago I thought I was super far out there because I entertained ideas like aliens, reincarnation, telepathy, God... little did I know back then how very much it doesn't matter what ideas you feel attracted to.
Stupid is something people can't change, if you got issues learning, understanding etc... I don't think that's really the problem. Being convinced you're always right and know everything that's the issue.

Sorry I bring it up again but on the example of God, where the word we use and exchange creates the illusion we know what we talk about or the other person means the same thing when using the word, shows to me the fundamental problem and it's again: language.
We have no way of expressing the nuances.
In theory on every topic that matters, we'd have to add hundreds of footnotes with definitions.
And the interesting thing is that'd be dynamic.
At this point who knows if your DrRuck still believes it or if it was a phase? Who knows if there's someone out there on a different path for whom it serves a purpose to develop new perspectives?
I mean I really don't like people and 99% of the time I'd wholeheartedly agree they're all stupid and a big part of the problem are beliefs and faith, but
you gotta have hope.
Maybe? I think...

Guitar l♥️ve


Same song in case it won't work

a reply to: Peeple

You are indeed super smarties.

Smartness is plentiful, it's over-ridden by stupidity because stupidity is far more vocal perhaps. All mouth and no trousers. Aptly describes the Bo-Jo's of the world.

I find determination, persistence and a certain laissez faire attitude are serving me far better than hope ever has. I'm choosing to embrace my stupidity, see where the ride takes me. I'm more of a stalker than a follower, so I have no concerns about being led off any cliffs.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Maybe I should try that too. Because honestly hope got a bit frustrating and drained me of all motivation.
My feeling in song: