Prophet Ishmael (pbuh)

It is certain not much is said about Ishmael in the Tanakh but surprisingly Rabbinical literature does, usually quite flattering. As is the Biblical account.

Ishmael was circumcised into the Covenant at 13, the second after Abraham. Following Biblical theme the younger son Issac is given the blessing of being the grandfather of 12 nations destined for a special relationship with God with intermittent lapses into idolatry they would repent, God would forgive, and they have a special relationship.

Let's remember that Ishmael was blessed and also the father of 12 nations. Gen 17:18-20; 23-26, lived to 137.

Here is what the old jewishencyclopedia

Ishmael was at his father's funeral and had no issue with Isaac as an adult. He was 14 when he laughed at Isaac and never tried to harm him. Pirke de R. Eliezer and Sefer ha Yashar state he went to live with Abraham late in life.

Baba Batra in Talmud says people who have a dream and see Ishmael are blessed, THE Ishmael and not any Arab.

The Zohar says Sarahs evil eye was the reason he was made to flee and calls him "supernal Holiness below" as Isaac is above.

And some people tend to believe only Jews are prophets in the Bible but the first Judahite/Jew was from Judah who had 3 Canaanite wives and children by 2 other women not Jewish, 3/5 of all Judahites are half Cannanite-Phoenician-Carthaginian stock.

And there were many Prophets from Adam to Isaac, none Jewish.

Shem-Eber-Abraham-Ishmael-Mohammed(pbut).

A Semite, Hebrew of the lineage of the Patriarch and Prophet Abraham(pbuh) through Hagar who the Zohar says is also Keturah but repentant.

Ishmael(Arabs/Muslims)and Israel are the only two peoples alive with "El" or God in their names and Ishmael means God will hear(him/them) and although some say it refers to Isaac this is untenable.

And the 8th century "Secrets of Simeon ben Yohai" calls the Ishmaelite Prophet, a Prophet (saws) to his people and a deliverance for Israel from the Edomites (Byzantium).

And applies the "Rider on the Camel passage of Isaiah to Mohammed (pbuh) and speaks well of the first leaders of the Ummah.

You might want to read that, it's here Secrets ben Yohai

Salaam.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Jews and religion. Oy vey.

Syrian monk John bar Penkaye also wrote the Muslims were sent by God to protect their monastic station from the Persians wicked Kingdom run by Khosro see, turtullian.org.

John of Nikiou, an opponent of Islam, wrote that the Copts aided the Muslims to root out Byzantium.

a reply to: dfnj2015

It's actually flattering literature though.

And old. 8th century! Pro Islamic literature from Judaism!

We've actually got a long history of cooperation with the Judahites .

a reply to: dfnj2015

Oh I am Muslim if you thought I was Jewish, I am not assuming, it's just possible.

I like the idea that Jews and Christians supported Islam at its inception and that it is documented and preserved.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Disturbinatti

Jews and religion. Oy vey.

No stars? Remembering that the first four books of the Bible were copied from the Torah.

Must be nice to enjoy exclusive rights (in the West) to the narration of world history.

If ever in doubt, remember the mind meld..."Its in the Bible".

I am only somewhat making this in reaction to the semi common claim of some who say Mohammed (saws) could not be a Prophet because he wasn't a Judahite.

My response:

4 Gospels are anonymous in reality. Does anyone think a Prophet writes anonymously and an honest church just assigns names to it?

Of two Apostles and two goyim, a Syrian and an Egyptian.

And that these anonymous pseudepigraphal Gospels are prophetically inspired by the Holy Spirit?

It's cool if you do but they weren't eye witnesses for everything they wrote and 2 never met Jesus (pbuh).

And Paul did not write all of Paul's epistles, established fact according to scholars and theologians.

So I am saying you believe this but don't think God could make a non Jewish Prophet?

Job and his three friends are Prophets according to tradition.

And Chaldean and others m

What's with the "(pbuh)"?

It's all very Old Testament, which means it has fallen out of mainstream Christianity.

Anyway, what's your angle with this, as it's a bit unclear. I imagine that inserting the word "prophet" gives this a bit of an Islamic slant. Wasn't Ishmael considered to be the father of the Arabs, and therefore a convenient differentiator with the other strand which went off down the Jewish / Christian line. The "other" strand being his brother Isaac.

Isaac goes onto Moses and all that
Ishmael goes onto Muhammad who founded Islam

I highly recommend reading the short ben Yohai link where in Mohammed saws is said to be the prophesied by Isaiah Rider on the camel.

It's short but awesome.

a reply to: paraphi

It means "Peace be upon him."

It's honorific.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Circumcision is no longer needed. It's a religious ritual.

a reply to: paraphi


Why do I need an angle?
I wanted to make a thread about Ishmael.

Did.

Don't complicate things with ranting about nothing. Don't be a drama queen.

It's simple, your questions pointless.

a reply to: RisenMessiah

Not for Jews and Muslims.

More than a ritual.

And irrelevant to the thread.

Plus I was circumcised as a Catholic baby.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

It's a ritual.

It's painful.

It should be as illegal as it is to circumsize females. It's cult like.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: dfnj2015

Oh I am Muslim if you thought I was Jewish, I am not assuming, it's just possible.

I like the idea that Jews and Christians supported Islam at its inception and that it is documented and preserved.

I was really just frustrated with religion in general. Actually, maybe not religion but human nature. I guess I'm just tired of all the bombings and wars in the ME.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Ishmaael was not the first born of ABRAHAMS WIFE SARAH. God Promised SARAH that SHE PERSONALLY would bear the One who would rule. Issmael was born of a egyptian slave Haggar.

BUT. Ishmael was also going to be allowwed to share in WHat Isaac was to inherit.

Go back and re read what God promised to Abraham and Sarah in the KJV(not the modern one but older one)

a reply to: yuppa

I didn't even say his mother WAS Sarah (pbuh).

Your point is moot and has been addressed.

By God.

a reply to: yuppa


You might think it a slick device to say "Go back and read..."

Yet I made no errors to warrant the suggestion to reread.

Not slick. You don't like Ishmael or Arabs or Muslims or something but God BLESSED ISHMAEL (pbuh) to be a great Prince of 12 nations.

It is you who needs to read it for the first time apparently.

a reply to: RisenMessiah

I don't really care about circumcision what's done is done.

I wouldn't obssess if I were you you can't tell people not to do it so why bother?

It's pointless complaining, do something constructive, or invent a foreskin transplant procedure and procure the foreskin of adult converts or something.

Rail to the AMA.

I don't know what to tell you it's just part of the tradition and the particular point I am making which is that Ishmael was the first to receive it after Abraham and he has every right to the Covenant because God said so.

It's religous stuff.

a reply to: yuppa


And stop pretending that a maiden who had her mistresses husband's child wasn't considered a legal and legitimate child in the Bible.

Hell the Bible says if you rape a woman you have to marry her, they didn't have our laws or culture.

All of Jacobs slave children are part of the 12 Tribes and legitimate.

Thus your argument falls apart like dry flaky crust crumbled in your hand then ran over.

Read it again.

Take your own advice I know the Bible better than you.