Prophet Ishmael (pbuh)

a reply to: firefromabove

Also I read the Zohar, and while Esau is wicked and described as a serpent, Ishmael pbuh is not and is called "supernal Holiness below."

Esau=Byzantine Rome in Rabbinical literature like Babylon and Rome.

Ishmael is definitely no Esau, who despised his birthright while Ishmael's (pbuh) was TAKEN, and to compensate God blessed him to be the Israel of the Arabs and others​.

I have even had to explain that "Established through Isaac" isn't the saws as WITH Israel.

I don't think it computed.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Text So Ishmael was a member of Isaac's Covenant, inherited from Abraham by rite of circumcision, so who cares if it was established through Isaac, it doesn't void Ishmaels initiation, so to speak, as ordered by God in the first place, it just makes Isaacs special.

No that is wrong again. The covenant of circumcision was not Isaac's covenant, as you have stated in your above statement. It was Abraham's covenant with The Most High EL. You just cannot seem to grasp the facts. You need a good teacher is what you need.

By the way here is another reason that you do not seem to understand. Your problem is that you are not educated in biblical understanding of both oral and written Torah.

It seems that you have accepted Pirke de R. Eliezer as one of your sources. Once again I see your dishonesty as I read in chapter XXX of Pirke de R. Eliezer the portion that you either overlooked or simply hid from the ATS members to cloud the truth.

Quote
Pirke de R. Eliezer
Chapter XXX – [page 216 in my copy]
Rabbi Jehudah the Prince said: In that night the Holy One, blessed be He, was revealed to him. He said to him: Abraham ! Doest thou not know that Sarah was appointed to thee for a wife [from her birth] from her mother’s womb? She is thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant; Sarah is not called thy handmaid, but thy wife; neither is Hagar called thy wife, but thy handmaid; and all that Sarah hath spoken [to thee] she has uttered truthfully. Let it not be grievous in thine eyes, as it is said, “And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight.”

Abraham rose up early, [in the morning] and wrote a bill of divorce, and gave it to Hagar, and he sent her and her son away from himself and from Isaac his son, from this world and from the world to come, as it is said, “And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water “ [ibid 14]. He sent her away with a bill of divorcement, and he took the veil, and he bound it around her waist, so that it should drag behind her to disclose [the fact] that she was a bondwoman. Not only this but also because Abraham desired to see Ishmael, his son, and to see the way whereon they went.
Unquote

The reason in showing this is that you are not honest and in being dishonest as well as rude you turn to one who has no credibility whatsoever.

Oral Torah does not change written Torah but only expounds written Torah. You do need teaching and to quit your bragging like a fool.

In the OP you stated the following ---

“Ishmael was at his father's funeral and had no issue with Isaac as an adult. He was 14 when he laughed at Isaac and never tried to harm him. Pirke de R. Eliezer and Sefer ha Yashar state he went to live with Abraham late in life.”

And in so doing, I used the very Pirke de R. Eliezer that you use as a source. So if Pirke de R. Eliezer is part of your sources then you have to accept this portion also. Either learn or stay ignorant.

a reply to: Seede

No.

Get over it I know what I am talking about and you are a little confused and can't accept it.

Take a nap. You can not just employ sophistry because you were wrong and be honest, it doesn't work that way.


You had nothing on me then or now, nothing I said was in haste and you are going to have to accept it or go on about your business.

I am not interested in your confused misrepresentation of the Torah, you claimed things about customs the Bible doesn't say adding your word, subtly, to the passage you quoted.

I refuted you with the word for word quote, the real reason Isaac got the whole inheritance and it was not what you claimed, due to custom but it was over jealousy and the sharing of said inheritance in the words of Sarah pbuh.

If it was a custom you didn't make up you must know more than Sarah about the traditions of her culture and Abraham who didn't say, "Don't worry it's custom to give the younger son the whole inheritance."

Which is not a birthright, that is something else. It may be a kind of a right, but not like what Esau sold Jacob, that wasn't about money but power, rulership.

I don't debate with people who can't get facts straight and make stuff up, which you do. It seems you fancy yourself an expert of sorts in Jewish culture. That's a delusion you are not.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
I don't debate with people who can't get facts straight and make stuff up,

I think you cannot debate. Ridiculing other people's well thought out posts because they do not fit with your (disputed) view of the world is not debating. It's being blinkered.

If you want people to discuss the topic you started, then it is incumbent on you to act like an adult to all (and any) viewpoints and to respond (i.e. debate) appropriately.

a reply to: paraphi

I debated to conclusion.

No need to keep repeating myself.

You think erroneously​.

a reply to: paraphi


Quote any one of my comments and try and dispute anything I said.

We will see.

I know how to avoid saying things that are not true. I made one error, I mentioned something in Midrash as Canonical but it was to my benefit because it was a negative and an impossible story that conflicts with the Torah which I noticed myself and corrected.

Other than that have at it. You won't be the first to realize it's not to your benefit, just read the thread, and quit fronting.

You will fool no one.

a reply to: paraphi

In fact you responded to a message directly, my last one, as if it didn't have a claim that I summarized and how I refuted it word for word with the Torah, hearkening back to a previous comment that I have yet to hear an admission of error regarding, when it can't be denied when Sarah pbuh says herself the reason has nothing to do with custom (Abraham neither), in my oft provided much repeated quote.

I pointed out how he added "as was customary" with no break to make it appear part of the text, just a period to seperate his words from Torah. Which I doubt was accidental, in all likelihood.

I will say this: I would consider that quality debating and my refusal to continue was not because I couldn't but already did, debate him.

Whatever he says after being conclusiveley proven to be wrong, possiby deceptive, is not my concern. Let him ramble on if he wants I don't have to worry about it.

Select the one comment which led you to question my skills in debate if, since it has debate in it that is accurate and you seem to think something about says I can't debate what I have.

And debate that comment.

Or like I said, any.

I look forward to it much.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
I don't debate with people who can't get facts straight and make stuff up,

I think you cannot debate. Ridiculing other people's well thought out posts because they do not fit with your (disputed) view of the world is not debating. It's being blinkered.

Good thing I was ignoring poorly thought out misrepresentations of the Torah and not what you said.

If you want people to discuss the topic you started, then it is incumbent on you to act like an adult to all (and any) viewpoints and to respond (i.e. debate) appropriately.

I did challenge you.

For the record, to dispute anything I have said.

I am still waiting...

Don't step up to the plate and not even swing at a strike unless you want to sit back down maybe leave the game.

If you were basing your words on truth you would have avoided this...reprimand of mine.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
a reply to: firefromabove
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Another thing is that some Jews believe Abraham's third wife Keturah was actually Hagar. I can't imagine Abraham, who was well over 100, decided to seek a new woman to marry and have kids with, after Sarah passed away.

He most certainly kept contact with Ishmael and Hagar. Look up the story of the tent pegs, in chapter 21 of the book of Jasher. This story also exists in Rabbinical literature.

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
Quote any one of my comments and try and dispute anything I said.

I have previously, regarding the conflicting viewpoint that Ishmael was legitimate, or illegitimate. Was Hagar the wife, or mistress to Abraham? It all depends on the weight you put on lines on a page that are often unsubstantiated or ambiguous, or contradictory.

However, my remarks on you ridiculing and belittling a post made by someone else was the cause of my observation that you need to learn some skills of debate. I have no problem that you hold a particular rigid position, but debate is about listening to other viewpoints.

Differing interpretation is why we have splits in religions, for example Catholicism and Protestantism, Sunni and Shia, the latter being the cause of ongoing inter-denominational brutality, intolerance and violence.

a reply to: paraphi

Since Sarah said to take her as a wife, and Abraham did, Ishmael pbut WAS legitimate.

If you don't remember that I already refuted any possibility of claiming illegitimatecy for Ishmael using Sarah's own words, I have no need to debate you.

Because you are doing exactly what seede did by bringing up already refuted claims.

A wife who has a child has a legitimate child.

Torah says Hagar was Abraham's wife.

If not he would be an adulterer, another thing I have mentioned 70 times.

Point proven, mic dropped.

That was easy. If only you paid attention to what I said you would have known that I refuted this claim already.

You stink at debating if you just repeat positively refuted fallacious claims.

And you accused Abraham (pbuh) of adultery like the fool before you, without realizing that you are slandering two Prophets/Patriarchs and lying about the words of Sarah suggesting she urged Abraham to commit adultery, pbuh.

Fool.

a reply to: paraphi


In trying to insult Ishmael pbuh you insulted instead the people who are his parents, Abraham his father and Sarah his mother pbut.

By claiming, contradicting the Torah in the process, that Sarah encouraged Abraham to sin by fornicating with a woman not his wife, a fallacy no theologian, scholar or smart person would make.

Because it's slander.

Abraham was told BY Sarah pbut to take Hagar as A WIFE.

And thus Abraham pbuh was no adulterer and Ishmael legitimate.

Told you...

You TRIED is what you should have focused on earlier because you aslo FAILED.

This was already debated, like I said, and you just set yourself up for failure.

a reply to: paraphi


To call Ishmael pbuh illegitimate is the same as calling Abraham pbuh an adulterer, as before you Hagar pbuh was called that but it takes two to tango so that fool was at least smart enough to realize that and be silent once I told him.

So how do you miss that and make the same exact mistake by calling Ishmael pbuh illegitimate, which only makes Abraham a sinner pbuh.

Thank God it's your mistake and not what Torah says.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Disturbinatti
Quote any one of my comments and try and dispute anything I said.

Was Hagar the wife, or mistress to Abraham?

See Genesis 16:3

"So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife."

a reply to: paraphi

And my friend here has corroborated the Torah says what I said it does.

Care to try again?

Pick any comment. I will debate you anytime

And since the Torah refutes why did you think Ishmael pbuh illegitimate?

Only a lack of knowledge and a desire to slander Ishmael pbuh would be the only possibility, both are the answer, symbiotically.


That's actually kind of biggoted since it's your imagination that dreamt up this falsehood.

Did it abound to God's glory like Paul says, lying about God can do?

If my FALSEHOODS abound to God's glory why am I being judged a sinner?

Is that it?

Paul lied, it doesn't do that and he was a sinner on account of his many falsehoods, none glorifies God.







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