schools must allow for minority students to speak in ebonics

originally posted by: wheresthebody
a reply to: crazyewok

No, because you sound like a terrible teacher.

Why?

Because I want my students to get good jobs which REQUIRES correct use of english.

a reply to: crazyewok

You sound like the kind of person who be the reason why a student would drop out of school.

a reply to: zosimov

Thats why I insist my students use correct English.

If there lazy deadbeat parents will not teach them then I will. Thats means even less room for ebonics within my classroom.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: zosimov

Thats why I insist my students use correct English.

If there lazy deadbeat parents will not teach them then I will. Thats means even less room for ebonics within my classroom.

*their

originally posted by: wheresthebody
a reply to: crazyewok

You sound like the kind of person who be the reason why a student would drop out of school.

Why? Because I insist on high standards and effort?


Am I to lower the bar for one group of students?


Speaking CORRECT English within a science class room is hardly a high expectation to begin with!

a reply to: zosimov

just amazing!

originally posted by: zosimov
Honestly, I believe if we approach the issue as these are human beings expressing themselves in the language which their mothers, loved ones, have spoken to them their entire life (rather than an inferior/ ignorant devolution) we might find that some of the problems are not as serious as we think.

I have different registers depending on with whom I am speaking. (See that proper grammar? That would never make it into my oral speech.) If I'm with my friends, my language is very different than my writing or when I am preparing a formal speech. Most humans are able to do just that.

Now, this doesn't mean that one has to accept less than grammatically perfect writing. It is a way to approach our students with love and compassion rather than judgment.

these are human beings expressing themselves in the language which their mothers, loved ones, have spoken to them their entire life

Just because everyone around you is wrong,
doesn't make it right

Ebonics is not a language, but an impediment.

Show me one novel, one textbook, one application, one Senate bill, one codified law, etc. written completely in Ebonics...it doesn't exist.

What an insult. I can hear it now when I call for information:

"For information in English, press 1.."
-
"For information in Spanish press 2.."
"para obtener información en la prensa española 2.."
-
"For information in Ebonics press 3.."
"Yo, if u be wantin' to git dat 411, den mash dat 3.."

Logically speaking, if you are to classify Ebonics as a language then it needs to be taught in school.

Now how stupid would that be?

a reply to: crazyewok

You are blaming your students for their situation.

Maybe you shouldn't be teaching in the environment that you're in, because you really do seem terrible at handling what comes with it, maybe you should aim to be a private tutor or something.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: zosimov

I usually agree with you, too. I think it is important that we be able to cross-communicate with all sectors of society. When in Rome, etc. Ebonics was something I learned when I worked in the urban core. We were still teaching them proper English. A person walking into a hiring office, or applying for work or college, who uses "ebonics" is sabatoging themselves.

I also taught Spanish as a Second Language to American service workers like utilities and hospital staff and clinicians in community settings. People in America need to be fluent in American English. The kind they speak on NPR, or Fox. Not everyone can understand ebonics. I began learning Spanish at age 8. Kept up with it all my life. I'm the only one in my family who can speak it. And it has proven itself over and over again as a valuable skill.

This isn't the first time they've tried to push this through, either. 20 years ago they did the same thing. I was raised with precision language, spelling, grammar, and punctuation/writing skills as a matter of course. My parents ALWAYS corrected us if we crossed the line into slang. With friends is a different thing.

Even at home, the kids of Spanish-speakers who are raised here learn both from infancy. They act as interpreters for their parents who often are too stressed or poorly educated to learn English themselves. This puts the kids in compromised situations. But that's life.

When a child has to tell the doctor or any other "authority" what is mom's ailment or problem or trouble, that often includes adult material that is not appropriate for kids to be thrown into the middle of.

We need to enforce a national vernacular that is globally understood. That is "General American." Every citizen needs to be proficient at it. That's all there is to it.

Sweetie, you know I am very much inclusive of all ethnicities and entranced with language. But it's true that to be successful, people need to be articulate. In General English. It's a global thing anyway. People in other countries that are industrialized and trading with Western countries ALL LEARN PROPER ENGLISH. Whether they are in Denmark or China or South Africa or France or Brazil or Russian or Farsi, they learn English. Our children absolutely need to be taught it. What they do on their own time is there their own business, but no.

We must not allow "ebonics" as some sort of alternative American dialect. No. And they need to pull up their damn pants, too!!
It's not doing youngsters any service at all to allow (let alone encourage) them to speak sub-par versions of English. Not if they are going to be viable citizens as adults in this world.

It's a strength to know more than one language, now more than ever. If I had my way, every kid would be taught Spanish alongside English from preK. Same with kids from ebonics homes or communities. They need to learn proper English.

That is what keeps civilization going. Sympathy and empathy are fine, but there is a place for accuracy and linguistic precision that must not be overlooked or dismissed.

You don't have to shame them to teach them business and academic English. But they need to learn it whether they use it at home or not.

Buzzy I quoted you because what you wrote was so well written and well said that I wanted to make sure everyone gets a chance to see your response! This was excellent and said in ways that I have no way of approaching so I'm just repeating but it is worth repeating!!!! Again, thank you for taking the time to type all of this out.

originally posted by: wheresthebody


You are blaming your students for their situation.

No.

I am trying to improve there situation.

They are free to talk in whatever slang they want OUTSIDE my classroom.

How does letting them speak in gibberish inside a science class room help them?

Pandering to someone born in a crappy situation and lowering standards does not help them, only keep them within that situation.

originally posted by: wheresthebodyMaybe you shouldn't be teaching in the environment that you're in, because you really do seem terrible at handling what comes with it, maybe you should aim to be a private tutor or something.

You know nothing about me or my teaching style. Only I do not pander to the lowest common denominator and will push my students so they have the BEST prospect of a future. Not being able to speak English will not help them.

a reply to: uncommitted

Sheesh. That is a rule up with which I will not put.

a reply to: crazyewok

Clearly you care deeply about your students' success. I wish you all the best and apologize for my brusque manner.

But compassion is never a bad approach.

originally posted by: EternalShadow
Ebonics is not a language, but an impediment.

Show me one novel, one textbook, one application, one Senate bill, one codified law, etc. written completely in Ebonics...it doesn't exist.

What an insult. I can hear it now when I call for information:

"For information in English, press 1.."
-
"For information in Spanish press 2.."
"para obtener información en la prensa española 2.."
-
"For information in Ebonics press 3.."
"Yo, if you be wantin' to get that 411, den mash dat 3.."

Didn't you know the US was written in ebonics! Its just a right wing conspiracy that it was covered up!

Wez da hommes of the United States, in da wayz an shiz 2 big up da Union, makes da Justice an # , make good digz, gibs 4 da gunz , welfare gibs, an locks down Liberty 2 da peeps.

a reply to: Martin75

This isn't exactly accurate. Most kids that speak Ebonics can also speak and write proper English however when they don't they tend to get shamed in some kind of way where as if it were any other accepted vernacular like Southern or Cajun, even Redneck (whatever the local dialect is) the teacher would just nod and go on. There's an unnecessary bias against Ebonics.

a reply to: crazyewok

Is Ebonics even a thing in the UK?

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: crazyewok

...the mistaken impression that one race's means of communicating is superior to another...

Setting aside the race definitions (because being black doesn't magically force you to use Ebonics, it's very much a cultural thing based around location)...

Imagine a company in Russia, full of Russians, speaking Russian - well, all of their employees except one, who only speaks English. Who's method of communication is superior? The Russian employees or the English employee?

The one that communicates the most effectively. In this case, it would be Russian.

There is nothing wrong with Ebonics if it's the most effective way of communicating with the target audience. Unfortunately, it relies on limiting Ebonics speakers to only talking to a very specific target audience. English speakers, however, could communicate effectively with both audiences. If you want to communicate to the broadest group most effectively, you need to speak English proper like wot I does.

I doubt posters here are judging superiority based on the language in and of itself - though I suspect Ebonics would fall flat in that comparison anyway due to the comparative paucity of vocabulary - but rather on which language allows the greatest level of engagement.

a reply to: Kali74

Only in your head.

In my classroom I dont accept slang talk from any background.

Hell I chewed out a scotish kid yesterday for using scotish slang in a test!

a reply to: crazyewok

With you all the way on this one Crazywok.

A big inhibitor to career progression is the ability to communicate with your fellow man. If you cannot be understood then you won't get a job, let alone a career.

If we cannot improve people's social mobility by teaching them how to communicate, properly then there's no point in teaching them to start with.

These groups will just languish in the same-old-same-old and blame everyone in a language that no one can understand.

Job applicant - "Yo Can ah gots uh motha #in job in yo' delightful company with muh beeotch".
Interviewer - "Er, I think she wants a job, but I really have no clue as to what she is saying".

Ebonics traslator

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: crazyewok

Is Ebonics even a thing in the UK?

In and around london it is and its not just blacks, its used by white and Asians in the poorer areas of south and east london. Its somewhat has merged itself with cockney.