Origin of Freemasonry and other questions(for masons)

Originally posted by quinny
dont want to be rude but yous guys arent the guardians of the craft so let the outsiders think what they want!

*sigh*
So you don't mind what people think of you if it's based on lies?
That in itself might not be dangerous, but what if those lies lead to your life being made miserable or even being put in danger?
You advocate self education - go and look at Nazi propaganda regarding Freemasonry and see what Hitler did to Freemasons. Take a look at what happens when unchecked propaganda is allowed to roam free. In fact, don't just look at the Freemasons in Hitler's instance - take a look at the Jews too. You can see what "outsiders thinking what they want" can do when given false information.

Nobody here purports to be a guardian of the Craft here either. What they do purport to be is part of ordinary society. When other people are spreading lies to have you cast out from that society, branded as a satanist, a corrupter, a pedophile or whatever, don't you think that you have a right to defend yourself?

You are advocating gagging. A restriction of free speech. Wether you like the replies given here or not, Freemasons have all of a right to defend themselves when falsely accused.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The masonry text that I have has the old masons themselves attributing their 'craft' the biblical times, to the masons assigned to the building of the first great jewish temple in jerusalem, and specifically a man named 'Hiram Abif'. Interestingly, this would infact give them an origin outside the judaeo-christian religion, insofar as the builders of the temple, in the bible anyways, are not jews, but a different group of semites who were pagans. c.f. Phonecians infact. Of course, this is a story that, from what I understand, is told within masonry, especially back in slightly less than modern times.

I find it odd that Hiram, and his murder, the building of Solomon's Temple etc. is virtually unmentioned in this thread.
You are the single person to raise this point. That would put the origins way back there.
1717 is a couple millenia or so off, by my reckoning.
The builders of the great pyramid were something special, and anyone who has done an indepth study of its many wonders should know this. I feel it is still the epitome of mankinds skills in construction. Also, I don't think we could replicate it today. And no one who knows about it in detail has ever refuted that posit.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I find it odd that Hiram, and his murder, the building of Solomon's Temple etc. is virtually unmentioned in this thread.
You are the single person to raise this point. That would put the origins way back there.

The story of the Temple is used as an allegory. It's symbolic. It doesn't necessarily mean that Freemasonry dates from Biblical times.
For myself, I even doubt that the Temple existed in the way that the Bible states that it did. Israel simply wouldn't have had the money or the resources to be able to construct such a building.
You will find other Freemasons who would disagree with my view. But it's like the Templar question. Where's the evidence?

In the book that I mentioned earlier the author mentions two other actual
murders from the middle ages that closley resemble the Hiram alegory
and suggest that they might have been the basis for it. I will lok them
up if you want.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
In the book that I mentioned earlier the author mentions two other actual
murders from the middle ages that closley resemble the Hiram alegory
and suggest that they might have been the basis for it. I will lok them
up if you want.

Please do, I'm all ears.

Ok I will reread the sections tonight and make notes for ya. It is an interesting book. the title is The Spirit of Masonry. Makes it more interesting that it was
first published in 1775.



BTW < CYE

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I find it odd that Hiram, and his murder, the building of Solomon's Temple etc. is virtually unmentioned in this thread.
You are the single person to raise this point. That would put the origins way back there.

The story of the Temple is used as an allegory. It's symbolic. It doesn't necessarily mean that Freemasonry dates from Biblical times.
For myself, I even doubt that the Temple existed in the way that the Bible states that it did. Israel simply wouldn't have had the money or the resources to be able to construct such a building.
You will find other Freemasons who would disagree with my view. But it's like the Templar question. Where's the evidence?

lol

That is an interesting answer leveller. I will assume you are on the level, and won't give you the third degree as to why you are so resistant to the concept.
Here is a summary of the suggestive evidence.
The organization of DeMolay is a Masonic one, named after the last Templar.
The Templar fleet flew as its flag the black flag with a skull and crossbones on it. Another common Masonic image.
The Templars were originally granted permission to set up their Jerusalem HQ on the Temple Mount, and were very actively involved in searching below the site of Solomon's Temple, the same Temple built by Hiram Abif, the murdered mastermason, who is well known to be a much discussed figure in Lodge circles. The Templar fleet vanished from history after the 1307 seizures. Scotland was one of very few nations that were a safe haven, and the cemetaries in Scotland contain Templar graves. Also the Scottish military coincidentally learned the latest tactics and strategies of warfare right at the same time. Information only Crusader Knights would likely have known. The much larger English army was not yet trained in these new methods.
Masonry began in Scotland, another coincidence, I guess.
The Sinclair family and the Rosslin chapel they built is full of Templar/Masonic carvings, and was built in the 1400's. Henry Sinclair made more than one trip to Nova Scotia, coincidentally the same place that the cunningly engineered Oak Island money pit was dug. This treasure pit required manpower, and very advanced engineering to complete, the Templar fleet is possibly the only source of both of these things.
The position of guard at the meeting is called Tyler, another Templar commonality.
You likely have heard all this before, so I think I will just stop here. So, are you convinced?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
You likely have heard all this before, so I think I will just stop here. So, are you convinced?

Heh. Nope.
Some of what you point out could be just symbolic coincidence.
Some could be symbolism that has been purposefully adapted.
Some of it is mere conjecture.
And some of it is just plain wrong.

It's gonna take a lot more than that to convince me!!!

Man, for me when I saw that both groups were positively Occult obsessed, you know with dates, rituals, ceremony I knew it was merely a continuation of knowledge.

Knights Templar: Christians into banking.
Freemasons: Jews and Christians into banking.
(of course I am talking of a specific time period here, prior to the 1800s specifically)

I'll spare the "quotation" marks around Christian, as the banking should make it clear what they were interested in .

Knights Templar had a choice, fight a war against their enemy (the common man!) or go underground for a while.

Some people cannot get around 'Things on the Surface': The fact that the Church got rid of the Knights, and that the Knights enemy was the Church.

Really the Church and Knights were fighting over control over the common man if anything. (Its my belief they were co-operating, many had to be tortured to hide this)

[edit on 13-2-2005 by akilles]

akilles. If you are interested in the Knights Templar the book to read is "The Templars" by Piers Paul Read.

www.orionbooks.co.uk...

In his own words: "My aim in this book has been to uncover the truth about the Order, avoiding fanciful speculation and recording only what has been established by the research of reputable historians"

.

Heh. Nope.
Some of what you point out could be just symbolic coincidence.
Some could be symbolism that has been purposefully adapted.
Some of it is mere conjecture.
And some of it is just plain wrong.

It's gonna take a lot more than that to convince me!!!
Leveller


I am shocked.........just kidding. I wish I could have placed a bet on your reply, cuz I was certain that it would be just like that. Remember, there are no coincidences, and if you think that I would believe that all the links and common times, places, and names they share are just fluke.........lol.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

I am shocked.........just kidding. I wish I could have placed a bet on your reply, cuz I was certain that it would be just like that. Remember, there are no coincidences, and if you think that I would believe that all the links and common times, places, and names they share are just fluke.........lol.

Of course there are coincidences. Two men may find that they have things in common even though they have never met before. Coincidences are a common everyday occurrence.
But like I said, symbols are one of the most common things that are adapted. Go take a look at any symbol and there is the probability that it was used elsewhere and may have had a different meaning.
The same goes for names. You only have to look at the person next to you to see that their name has been adapted from somewhere else - it obviously doesn't mean that they have all of the attributes of their original namesake.

As I've stated many times before, I would not be upset to see Freemasonry objectively linked with the perceived romanticism of the Knights Templar. In my opinion and in the opinion of some Masonic scholars that's even how the whole thing started!!!

www.masonicinfo.com...

Unfortunately though, there is no evidence - merely conjecture based upon conjecture.

When is a coincidence a denial ?

Never? Oh, ok, good.

If any one cares to notice, the Freemason George Washington, commemorated in stone, doing none other than the Occult hand signal "as above so below" - otherwise known as the symbol of 'Baphomet'.




As for the Knights Templar connection, here undeniably once again:
"The Stewart kings, the Setons and the Sinclairs were all hereditary Knights Templars, and Scottish Rite Freemasonry was later created as a substructure of the organization.

Certain Masonic 'rites' or 'observances' claimed direct lineal descent from the order as well as authorized custody of its arcane secrets."

The hereditary right of the Stewarts came by virtue of Robert the Bruce having granted the Knights asylum in Scotland....

And like I have said all along: Scarcely had the Order of the Temple been destroyed than it arose again, phoenix-like, from the flames of its own pyre, to assume a new mythic guise. Within a quarter of a century of the Temple's dissolution, a spate of neo-Templar orders began to appear (and would continue to appear, until the formation of Freemasonry, when another guise was born).

from: watch.pair.com...

The precursors of the Freemasons are identified by authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail as the medieval Knights Templars

Discussed to death. To death, even.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That was truly the most useless link yet posted. I am not interested in people's daily lives from August last year, which is what that link documents.

As above , so below.

Originally posted by akilles
That was truly the most useless link yet posted. I am not interested in people's daily lives from August last year, which is what that link documents.

I'm devastated.

Displaying saved search on (>Freemasonry >connections "Knights Templar" "Holy Blood, Holy Grail") searching in post (threads/posts).

How is this useless or irrelevant? This is a list of many posts that have the keywords above in them, posted to illustrate my point that the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" angle has been THOROUGHLY disussed here. I would tell you to use the search function but I already did it for you.

As above

, so below

I am as certain as I could be that you have no idea what that really means.

The organization of DeMolay is a Masonic one, named after the last Templar.

DeMolay is masonically affiliated but not Masonic. DeMolay was not the last Templar, he was the last verifiable Grand Master of the Templars.


The hand gesture you are talking about is most commonly refered to as the John
gesture, and can be seen in many works of art

John The Baptist?

I'm sure it can be seen in many medieval works of art that are Occult-based.

Even John The Baptist has an Occultic meaning, you know.

Axeman, just because I don't reveal something to the ignorant likes of yourself does not mean that I myself am IGNORANT of it. Think about it.

You say you are here to learn, yet I do not hear you ask questions.

You say you are critical, yet I don't see you analyze.

You attack, and post smilies
Now go forth and continue, for this is your path, for if it wasn't, it would not be The Path.

Originally posted by akilles
Axeman, just because I don't reveal something to the ignorant likes of yourself does not mean that I myself am IGNORANT of it. Think about it.

Gee, that makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside. Thanks.

You say you are here to learn, yet I do not hear you ask questions.

I just asked MaskedAvatar a question not an hour ago! You think I don't ask questions? Ask Masonic Light how many questions I've asked him alone in the last 8 months. I can't even imagine what the number would be, and that's just one person!!!

You say you are critical, yet I don't see you analyze.

Really? www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just one example. Show me a post where you rationally analyzed ANYTHING. Just one.

You attack, and post smilies

*yawns* We need a yawning smiley. That would be a good addition, methinks.

Now go forth and continue, for this is your path, for if it wasn't, it would not be The Path.

SO SAYETH AKILLES.



[edit on 2/13/05 by The Axeman]

akilles everything yes Everything has occult meanings
or connotations.

How many times did you get laid last week (if any) thats occult. how many trips to the head did you make( if any. and you should cause your really full of it.)? thats occult. How many
or

are there in your family tree? thats occult. Do they allow you sharp
objects where you live or onlly spoons of the plastic variety? thats occult


what do priests do in that little room behind the alter? thats occult. what happens in the squad room of the local police station? thats occult

Occult is simply hidden or unknown. nothing sinister ( which also had no
negative meaning until people like you came along it simply meant the left
side or left handed. the side attributed to the feminine principle.) so pleas go
back to the third grade and really work on those spelling lists.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by stalkingwolf]