Origin of Freemasonry and other questions(for masons)

Originally posted by akilles
You call yourself Masonic Light, and then when I say the term Freemasonry originated from an Ancient Egyptian (a common ancestor for many things in Masonry) phrase meaning 'Children of the Light', yet you say there is substance to what I am saying?

Nope, I'm saying there's not substance in what you're saying. The word "Freemasonry" doesn't derive from "Phree Messen." The word "mason" comes from the French "macon", meaning "to build." The word "free" comes from the Old English "freo", meaning "unbound."

The word "Free Mason" appears in this context many times in the Gothic Constitutions, dated from the middle ages, which governed the Craft at that time. It alluded to full guildsmen who were not bound to the manor through serfdom.

If you can't get something as simple as terminology correct, it appears anything further will be just a waste of time for you.

Originally posted by akilles
Well, Axeman, defy me and say that isn't the oath.

I will defy you... that is not the same oath I learned. And by the way, you don't know it, you only know how to cut and paste. You haven't the slightest clue as to what the words you pasted mean.

And honestly, I am not familiar with ANY lodge that teaches THAT oath, so as far as I am concerned, IT IS WRONG, AND YOU ONLY THINK IT'S RIGHT BECAUSE FREEMASONRYWATCH.COM TOLD YOU IT IS. Eventually, even little boys need to grow up and learn how to wipe their own butt...


[edit on 11-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by akilles
Well, Axeman, defy me and say that isn't the oath.

I will defy you... that is not the same oath I learned. And by the way, you don't know it, you only know how to cut and paste. You haven't the slightest clue as to what the words you pasted mean.

And honestly, I am not familiar with ANY lodge that teaches THAT oath, so as far as I am concerned, IT IS WRONG, AND YOU ONLY THINK IT'S RIGHT BECAUSE FREEMASONRYWATCH.COM TOLD YOU IT IS. Eventually, even little boys need to grow up and learn how to wipe their own butt...


[edit on 11-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

Even still, even if what he posted was the actual oath, what in it would be so bad? It says, basically, "I will not reveal the secrets in any way, shape, or form, so help me God, and if I do, punish me."

What is so bad about that? Granted the punishment is a little graphic, but honestly, would that be an oath that you would not be willing to take?

Originally posted by akilles
Well, Axeman, defy me and say that isn't the oath.

I'm not Axeman, but I will say that's an "Obligation" Not an Oath. Part of it (the part that says "So Help Me God" is an Oath.

So you've found a so-called expose' on the web. That's not the Obligation *I* took. Parts are similar, but that's not "the" oath as you call it.

But again, what of it? Anything bad there? I mean really?

I could say what I personally feel is bad about it, but as you said 'millions and millions of men have taken this oath', and they wouldn't take it if they KNEW it interfered with their belief system.

Or I could use the Ten Commandments, but because I am not here to argue their definition, I don't think that one is going to appease any of you guys.

And really sebatwerk, if you took that EXACT oath, I know for a fact you would say it was 'only similar, at best', its right there in the 'obligation'!

Originally posted by akilles

The term Freemasonryis not based on the root word 'masonry', but rather the ancient term 'Phree Messen', meaning Children of Light.

Deny it, call it an interesting coincidence, or just say 'How dare you suggest our order is not descended from brick layers!'

Actually, looking at the EVIDENCE, we probably are descended from operative Masons and their guilds. The books that I've read that repeat your theory all seem to have problems siting original sources for their data.

In an ideal situation though, why can't we be both "Children of Light" AND descendents of Stonemasons?

Originally posted by akilles
You call yourself Masonic Light, and then when I say the term Freemasonry originated from an Ancient Egyptian (a common ancestor for many things in Masonry) phrase meaning 'Children of the Light', yet you say there is substance to what I am saying?

As anyone can see, I do know something, mainly the oath for the Entered Apprentice...

akilles , I run several Forums, a large number of web sites and consider myself widely read on most things Masonic.

I would not consider myself to be on the same level as 'Masonic Light' with regard to knowledge of Freemasonry. He is probably one of several masons who we masons would refer to as an expert on Masonic History. The title or username of 'Masonic Light' is a many times over qualified description of the poster.

For you to challenge him you must put up or shut up, post your evidence for your statement:

Freemasonry originated from an Ancient Egyptian (a common ancestor for many things in Masonry) phrase meaning 'Children of the Light'

Or you are just blowing smoke.

The oath of an entered apprentice can be obtained from many a source:
www.gospeltruth.net...
www.utlm.org...

Here are just two site where this information is available.


[edit on 12-2-2005 by billmcelligott]

the first recorded minutes of a free mason lodge were in scotland so all this bull about it starting in england and europe is crap, where is the evidence the masonic is an organization that cannot speak abot religion and politics try telling this to christians before they join!

Originally posted by quinny
the first recorded minutes of a free mason lodge were in scotland so all this bull about it starting in england and europe is crap

Sorry to display your ignorance, but there are actually references to Freemasonry in England dating back to 1390. Try Googling "Regius Manuscript". The origins of Freemasonry are contentious but the reason that England is referred to as the birthplace of Modern Freemasonry is because this is where the first Grand Lodge was formed.

where is the evidence the masonic is an organization that cannot speak abot religion and politics try telling this to christians before they join!

Uh. Ignorance exhibit number two.
Everyone is told that politics and religion cannot be discussed in Lodge. If a man doesn't agree with this rule he doesn't join. It's as simple as that.

[edit on 12-2-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by quinny
the first recorded minutes of a free mason lodge were in scotland so all this bull about it starting in england and europe is crap

In case you weren't aware, Scotland is in Europe, but that's sort of beside the point.

Leveller is absolutely correct: The oldest existing documents of Freemasonry are English, and refer to York, England as its birthplace.

Originally posted by akilles
I could say what I personally feel is bad about it,

Am I the only one who has no idea what that means???

but as you said 'millions and millions of men have taken this oath', and they wouldn't take it if they KNEW it interfered with their belief system.

I would say that the vast majority of us took it knowing that it DOESN'T interfere with our belief system.

We're not all fundamentalists. Some of us believe in REASON. Ever heard of that?

Or I could use the Ten Commandments, but because I am not here to argue their definition,

Who are "they"? Which Commandment??? The one about "Thou Shalt not be Freemason?" I must have missed that one...or any of them that had anything to do with being a member of a fraternal society.

I don't think that one is going to appease any of you guys.

Probably not.

And really sebatwerk, if you took that EXACT oath, I know for a fact you would say it was 'only similar, at best', its right there in the 'obligation'!

I can't speak for sebatwerk, but if I took that EXACT obligation, I'd admit it. The one I took was quite similar and the end result is the same. It does NOT interfere with me being a Trinitarian Christian.

I have just started reading The Spirit of Masonry again. this work was originally
published in 1775. The fifst chaptr is Titled "Introductory Dissertation on th state of Freemasonry in theEighteenth Century." on page 10 note 8 i find a statement that im sure will make most if not all masons here right happy
they are members now and not then. It is

The Dress of English Master Masons was unassuming. It consisted simply of white stockings,gloves and aprons.

Originally posted by akilles
And really sebatwerk, if you took that EXACT oath, I know for a fact you would say it was 'only similar, at best', its right there in the 'obligation'!

Actually, I just wouldn't have said anything at all.

Its not religious, but they say there's a "Divine Presence in the Lodge".

Its not religious at all, yet read"Nor does Masonry seek to hide the fact that it rests on God, lives inGod, and seeks to lead men to God."

"Masonry, in its symbols and in its spirit, seeks to bring us into the presence of God and detain us there."

Originally posted by akilles
Its not religious, but they say there's a "Divine Presence in the Lodge".

Its not religious at all, yet read"Nor does Masonry seek to hide the fact that it rests on God, lives inGod, and seeks to lead men to God."

"Masonry, in its symbols and in its spirit, seeks to bring us into the presence of God and detain us there."

Nobody said Freemasonry was not religious... only that it was not a RELIGION, or substitute for. Sectarian religion is not to be discussed in lodge, hence the use of the term GAOTU which is used as an embodiment of each individual mason's god of worship. But masonry always has been a fraternity designed to make each man a better citizen and follower of his own religion. Nobody has ever doubted that, you just need to stop taking things out of context.

Originally posted by akilles
Its not religious, but they say there's a "Divine Presence in the Lodge".

Its not religious at all, yet read"Nor does Masonry seek to hide the fact that it rests on God, lives inGod, and seeks to lead men to God."

"Masonry, in its symbols and in its spirit, seeks to bring us into the presence of God and detain us there."

akilles, what's WRONG with the above statements (except the fact that you cite no references)?

Does it say anywhere however that "It saves men's souls?" "It is the pathway to eternal life?" Doesn't seem to say that does it?

Religions tend to have a (so-called) "plan of salvation" Masonry doesn't have that. It simply has reverence for God, whomever the individual Mason may believe that to be.

My local Lions Club opens it's meetings with prayer. Is it a religion?

Actually, I wouldn't say that Freemasonry is religious at all.
It contains elements of the spiritual. Religion lays down a set of rigid guidelines that all must follow. Freemasonry doesn't.
Religion dictates whereas Freemasons may choose.

I'm not told by Freemasonry that I have to follow a certain god. I'm not told by Freemasonry that I have to worship the god I choose in a certain way. I'm not told by Freemasonry that I'm right in my belief or that I'm wrong.
If I want to be told, I look to religion.

Originally posted by Leveller
Actually, I wouldn't say that Freemasonry is religious at all.
It contains elements of the spiritual. Religion lays down a set of rigid guidelines that all must follow. Freemasonry doesn't.
Religion dictates whereas Freemasons may choose.

I'm not told by Freemasonry that I have to follow a certain god. I'm not told by Freemasonry that I have to worship the god I choose in a certain way. I'm not told by Freemasonry that I'm right in my belief or that I'm wrong.
If I want to be told, I look to religion.

True, but that's WAY above akilles head. He's made up his narrow mind that we're Satanic child abusers and there's no convincing him (or those people like him) any differently.

Thank goodness he's not a Mason

well i tried to get the discussion back to the origins of the order/

Originally posted by quinny
the first recorded minutes of a free mason lodge were in scotland so all this bull about it starting in england and europe is crap, where is the evidence the masonic is an organization that cannot speak abot religion and politics try telling this to christians before they join!

lads lads, i wont post anymore yous get worked up really easy im just stating how easy it is to get an explanation from yous guys. Is it really neccessary for yous to answer every person that comes on the site slating freemasonry let them think what they want dont post any links and give them info(let them search for light themselves) ffs dont want to be rude but yous guys arent the guardians of the craft so let the outsiders think what they want!