The flat earth conspiracy

originally posted by: neutronflux
VSI is not an “instruments on planes measure Earth as a flat surface”. It measures the rate of change in pressure to convert it to a rate of change in feet. VSI doesn’t measure level like a bubble in a level, Mercury switch, gyroscope, or measure the terrain of the earth like radar. Is that false.

Right, the VSI measures level within air, using air pressure, to find level flight, which I've only mentioned 20 or 30 times now. It's hard enough to discuss these issues with you, as is, but if you don't even know what I've told you repeatedly, then it's pretty much a hopeless case.

originally posted by: neutronflux
Altimeter is not an “instruments on planes measure Earth as a flat surface”. An altimeter is calibrated to to sense pressure and show it as feet in altitude. Altimeters doesn’t measure level like a bubble in a level, Mercury switch, gyroscope, or measure the terrain of the earth like radar. Is that false.

I never said it measures level, in any way. Please read what I say before you waste everyone's time, again and again.

originally posted by: neutronflux
“ combined they”. The use pressure and differential pressure to show deviations and changes in altitude. They read correctly for when going over mountains or valleys. They show changes in altitude do to turbulence. They have noting to do with pitch or how parallel (level) a jet is in reference to the earth’s surface which is pretty meaningless. Especially when flying over mountains, valleys, cannons, stormy seas.

Once again, you didn't read my posts. I never said they measure the surface, or use it in some way s a reference during flights. You made it all up yourself, and tried to imply it was MY argument.

originally posted by: neutronflux
What happens to VSI if your flying over Oklahoma City heading west, fly over the Rockies, then fly out over the west coast of the USA. Does the VSI go “crazy” “measuring” the unlevelness of the mountain range while flying over the Rockies at 30,000 feet?

No, because the VSI measures air pressure, around the plane, during flight, to measure level, descent, and ascent.

When I explained how the VSI can only measure air pressure around the length of a plane, during flight, to find level, I didn't think I'd have to explain any of this to you again. I actually thought you'd have READ my posts about that, and when you replied, you would already know what I said.

I find it hard to believe that you had NO IDEA about what I said, on this matter. Especially when I've explained what the VSI does to you many, many times already. So I'm sure you DO know what I said about the VSI, and for whatever reason, you made up something else I never said at all.

Obviously, you already know what I've said about the VSI. And you cannot change my argument. This is always what you do, when your arguments fail. You just invent a claim, suggest it is my claim, and wait for me to tell you I never said it, that you made it all up.

So on and on it goes..

a reply to: turbonium1

You

Right, the VSI measures level within air,

No.

Again. It uses different pressure to indicate if the aircraft has vertical speed. It doesn’t haven anything to do with the planes pitch.


The definition of level flight is to maintain altitude. Planes often maintain level flight in a nose up condition. Level flight has noting to do levelness of the aircraft to the ground.

You

I never said it measures level, in any way.


Turbo. Did you lie on Easter?

Especially when all our instruments measure it as a flat surface, a LEVEL surface, when flying level above it throughout the time, it is absolutely clear, conclusive proof.

How do you go from stating “Especially when all our instruments measure it as a flat surface, a LEVEL surface,“ to honestly stating “ I never said it measures level, in any way. ”


Here are some different prospectives from metabunk, Explained: “Why flying isn't impossible on a globe“

www.metabunk.org...

By Trailblazer

www.metabunk.org...

Pilots (or autopilots) do make adjustments to altitude, but that is nothing to do with the curvature of the Earth. If you want to maintain level flight (a constant altitude), then you might have to adjust up or down to account for wind etc, or the aircraft trim not being set perfectly. You'd have to do the same whether the Earth was flat or curved, just like you have to make little corrections of the steering wheel even when driving along a straight road. It's not the case, as you seem to assume, that without corrections the plane would go flying off at a tangent from the Earth. Doing that would actually mean ascending at an increasingly steep angle (again, draw a diagram).

It seems to be a common misconception that curvature means the altitude somehow changes over distance. It doesn't. EVERYTHING is curved. "Level" is always at right angles to "down". You don't have to adjust for the curvature any more than you have to remember to turn yourself upside down before getting off the plane in Australia.

By Keith Beachy

www.metabunk.org...

I have never made a conscious attitude adjustment for the curvature of the earth. Please point out the term in the EoMs I presented which would require an adjustment for the curvature of the earth; how big would the adjustment . We remain the same distance above the earth (sort of) which means our energy does not change, what adjustment is it? I have flown 10 hours at 550 true airspeed without making any pitch adjustment due to the curve of the earth... what adjustment do you think I would have to make?
What is the sort of? What if the pressure changes in an area, our aircraft to maintain altitude with gain or loose energy.

There are constant attitude adjustments, but not for the curvature of the earth, that is bunk to me.
www.aviationweather.ws...
When we fly from low/high to high/low pressure areas we may need to make adjustments.
The plane wants to climb as we burn fuel, we make a thrust adjustment, changing the thrust might require a pitch change.

Again. If auto pilot is set to maintain an altitude of 30,000 feet. Why would the VSI ever indicate anything if it maintains set altitude?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: turbonium1

Are you really that dense? Planes fly level, not in a curved path, understand the difference here?

False. They follow the cure of the earth in an arc by maintaining altitude which is read by air pressure which in reality is different than you false argument.

Wrong. A plane flies up to cruising altitude, say 30000 feet, set from 0 altitude on ground, to an ascent that is measured by the VSI in feet per minute.

If a plane takes off from the ground, ascends at an average rate of 40 fpm over the first 30 seconds after liftoff, then ascends at a rate of 100 fpm over the next 30 seconds, how would the altimeter measure the correct altitude, from this point? You believe that the altimeter measures the air pressure, around the plane, while it's rate of ascent constantly changes during the same single minute, after liftoff, without knowing the rate of ascent? Because, as you are well aware, the altimeter does NOT measure the plane's rate of ascent. The VSI measures it.

How could the altimeter measure the altitude of a plane during an ascent, from 0 feet altitude, on ground, to a continually greater rate of ascent, from 0 fpm on ground, to 10 fpm, 30 fpm, 60 fpm, 100 fpm, over the same one minute, after liftoff? How does the altimeter measure air pressure over a continually changing rate of ascent, to determine the correct altitude after a minute? It does not, cannot, measure what the altitude the plane is at, by measuring the air pressure around the plane after a minute of ascent, which we'll say is 450 feet altitude, because the air pressure at 470 feet, and/or 350 feet altitude, has basically the same air pressure, as at 450 feet altitude.

Another thing - the air pressure at a specific altitude, say 30000 feet, over California, is higher/lower air pressure over Hawaii, or Chile, at the same 30000 feet altitude.

Air pressure can obviously determine the general altitude of a plane, but because air pressure is based on layers, each layer being hundreds or thousand of feet 'thick', there is no specific air pressure reading, that identifies each and every specific 'foot' of altitude.

Without the VSI, to measure rate of ascent, in feet per minute, there is no way to measure for 30000 feet altitude, or 29500 feet altitude, because air pressure isn't based on one foot increments, or ten foot increments, or hundred foot increments.

On the ground, the plane is at 0 foot altitude, on the altimeter, and it reads 0 fpm, on the VSI.

When the plane begins to ascend, the VSI measures it in fpm, which the altimeter uses to measure the altitude of the plane, as it ascends. Without the VSI, the altimeter could not measure the correct altitude during an ascent, because air pressure isn't gauged in one foot, ten foot, or 100 foot, increments, and varies, depending on where the plane is.

The altimeter does not measure altitude as 30000 feet, being 52300 pa, air pressure, and sets to 52300 pa, and the altimeter automatically adjusts the flight path to that air pressure, to remain at 30000 feet, for 'level flight'.

The VSI measures level flight in air, using air pressure AROUND the plane. It is NOT measuring what the air pressure should be at 30000 feet, and seconds later, measures the air pressure again, and if it's the same reading, measures it as level flight.


The VSI measures an ascent, or a descent, the same way. It uses the air pressure around the plane to measure an ascent or a descent. It does NOT measure the air pressure at one altitude, (which doesn't have a single pressure reading, anyway), and then, measures the air pressure at another altitude, to know it was an ascent, or a descent, of X altitude.


I've shown you many sources which state the VSU measures for ascent, descent, and level flight, determined by the air pressure around the plane. If you can't accept what the sources state, then you are in denial of reality, and that's your problem, not mine.

a reply to: turbonium1

I am sorry you don’t get that 30,000 feet above sea level is the same in Africa, Europe, Russia, South America. And If a jet maintains its altitude of 30,000 feet and stays in the corresponding pressure at 30,000 feet, there is no differential pressure to drive a VSI instrument. If a jet maintains its 30,000 feet. Why would the VSI indicate any change in vertical speed.

Again.,,

By Trailblazer

www.metabunk.org...-192400

If you want to maintain level flight (a constant altitude), then you might have to adjust up or down to account for wind etc, or the aircraft trim not being set perfectly. You'd have to do the same whether the Earth was flat or curved,

originally posted by: neutronflux
Again. If auto pilot is set to maintain an altitude of 30,000 feet. Why would the VSI ever indicate anything if it maintains set altitude?

If auto pilot is set to maintain 30000 feet altitude, the only way it could maintain that altitude over 'curvature' of 5 feet per minute in flight, is to fly in a DESCENT. If it flew in a descent to maintain altitude, over 'curvature', the VSI would measure a 5 fpm DESCENT, and it doesn't.

Level flight is measured by the VSI, during flight. The altimeter does NOT measure for level flight, nor an ascent, nor a descent. I'd like you to show me a source that states the altimeter measures for level flight, or is set to maintain altitude, and it descends 5 fpm while the VSI measures 0 fpm.

I've shown you sources stating that it is the VSI which measures level flight, do you claim they are wrong?

a reply to: turbonium1

You

If auto pilot is set to maintain 30000 feet altitude, the only way it could maintain that altitude over 'curvature' of 5 feet per minute in flight, is to fly in a DESCENT.

Why? If you fly over London then Paris, is 30,000 feet above sea level any different over Lindon than Paris? If 30,000 feet is maintained between the two cities, why would there be any vertical speed indication on the VSI?

A simplified pic of the pitot system schema - from an aircraft



altitude and VSI use the same external source

If you want to maintain level flight (a constant altitude), then you might have to adjust up or down to account for wind etc, or the aircraft trim not being set perfectly. You'd have to do the same whether the Earth was flat or curved,

Again, there is no mention of how level flight is measured, or what measures level flight. Saying level flight is a flight at constant altitude is ignoring the most important point - that level flight is measured by the VSI first, and in being a level flight, has a constant altitude.

They somehow forgot to explain WHY a level flight is considered to be a flight at constant altitude...

I'd also like to know how they can sleep at night.

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
A simplified pic of the pitot system schema - from an aircraft

altitude and VSI use the same external source

And a constant altitude reads 0 fpm on the VSI, which is level flight. Thanks for proving my point.

a reply to: turbonium1

You

The altimeter does NOT measure for level flight, nor an ascent, nor a descent

Don’t tell that to skydivers who use An AAD (automatic activation device).

How Skydiving Work

Automatic Activation Device

adventure.howstuffworks.com...

any of these situations, you may be unable to deploy your parachute yourself, and you need some help. An AAD (automatic activation device) is a small computer that constantly monitors the altitude and activates the reserve chute for you.

If they altimeter doesn’t change it’s indicated altitude when the jet changes altitude, what good is it.

i feel it interesting to note - that the VSI was not invented till 1929 . and yet for the previous 15+ years - pilots managed to maintain level flight

alcock and brown - flew non stop across the atlantic - with no VSI

maintaing level flight with just the altimeter - is harder than alt + VSI - but patently posible

VSI - just makes pilots lives easier

a reply to: turbonium1

You

that level flight is measured by the VSI first, and in being a level flight, has a constant altitude.

Again....

No matter the model...

If you fly over London then Paris, is 30,000 feet above sea level any different over Lindon than Paris? If 30,000 feet is maintained between the two cities, why would there be any vertical speed indication on the VSI? In either model?

a reply to: turbonium1

you utterly miss the point - if the VSI moves - so does altimiter - you are in a delusional buble

Show me a source that states the altimeter measures for level flight, ascent, and descent. I've shown you sources that state the VSI measures them, so let's see some actual sources, instead of you trying to twist the facts.

a reply to: ignorant_ape

And they are not a required instrument...

Minute
Regulation:
There are no regulations that require a vertical speed indicator by federal aviation regulations
www.cfinotebook.net...

the utter inability - or more correctly - unwillingess [ for " reasons " ] of a single member - to accept basic physics - has reduced this thread to a farce

50 pages - has not resolved this

and every angle has been tried

its very simple ASL 10000M is the same distance above datum - everywhere on the globe

weather flying over everest - or above the dead sea - its still the same distance ASL [ DATUM ]

terrain is irrelevant

only one person - refuses to accept this

originally posted by: turbonium1
Show me a source that states the altimeter measures for level flight, ascent, and descent. I've shown you sources that state the VSI measures them, so let's see some actual sources, instead of you trying to twist the facts.

Please define level flight. And how that relates to pressure based instruments like VSI and Altimeter.

a reply to: turbonium1

altimeter - if the display stays constant - altitude has not changed



firther - the secondary indicators - give a ROUGH rate of climb // dive

the faster they change - the steeper the dive // climb

again basic physics

why are you unable to accept this ?

a reply to: turbonium1

You

Show me a source that states the altimeter measures for level flight, ascent, and descent

You are are wrong....

HIGH POWER ROCKETRY: DUAL DEPLOYMENT (two parachutes)

HIGH POWER ROCKETRY: DUAL DEPLOYMENT

westrocketry.com...

Dual Event Altimeter. Altimeter is a device that continuously measures atmospheric pressure. The altitude of the rocket is immeditatelly computed from the difference of pressure at the ground level (as sampled during altimeter activation) and currently measured pressure. Dual Event Altimeter is an altimeter with some additional functionality. First of all, it is able to detect apogee and "throw-a-switch" when the apogee is detected (this can be used to fire a drogue parachute ejection charge). Second, the dual event altimeter will continue to monitor the altitude even during the descent and can "throw-another-switch" when a predetermined altitude is reached (and thus fire the main parachute ejection charge). Most of the dual event altimeters also record the graph of altitude vs. time for the whole duration of flight.

And show me any valid sources that mention 'curvature', which would hardly be something of interest, flying over it every day, completely unaware that a plane would need to descend 1800 feet over a 6 hour flight to 'maintain' altitude.

You insist there is 'curvature', while they don't even teach it in flight school! Good one!

It's not documented, it's not taught in flight school, it's not measured for level flight, and somehow, you think that you have a valid argument?