Freedom of Speech and Freedom from Consequences.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

You want a history lesson from me?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I know that it is expected but i got no beef with Hitler.

I do think it is an exaggerated example.

How about buying a new smartphone when you don't need one, voting for Pedro or any topic where people choose sides?

People organize campaigns to convince others. That is a conscious and deliberate action.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Exactly, it could be that cheating husband that keeps telling his lover that he is going to leave his wife, he is just waiting for the right moment, with no intention of coming through.

She can stop believing him at any time. He is still guilty of leading her on.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
You want a history lesson from me?

Ok, I'll play along (though I must say this is most unexpected from you Deaf Alien, who is usually always so reasonable.):

Hitler

1) In 1933:
- Hitler becomes chancellor of a coalition government, where the Nazis have a third of the seats in the Reichstag.
- The German Reichstag is destroyed by fire. The plot and execution is almost certainly due to the Nazis but they point the finger at the communists and trigger a General Election.

In 1934:
- Hitler withdraws from the League of Nations. In the following months, he trebles the size of the German Army and ignores the arms restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles.
- After the death of President Hindenburg, Hitler becomes “Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor” and abolishes the title of President

In 1945: Hitler dies (or is officially believed to be dead as far as we know)
(Source)

(The above illustrates when Hitler obtained and managed to use the power he obtained to start doing what he wanted.)

Hitler Youth

The Hitler Youth (German: About this sound Hitlerjugend (help·info), often abbreviated as HJ in German) was the youth organisation of the Nazi Party in Germany. Its origins dated back to 1922. From 1933 until 1945, it was the sole official youth organisation in Germany and was partially a paramilitary organisation. (Source)

(The above illustrates that the earliest reference to Hitler You was 1922. Although it seems to have only become a problem from 1933.)

Do you agree that the above dates are generally accurate and accepted by most historians?

If not, can you direct me to a source that is more accurate?

originally posted by: daskakik
Exactly, it could be that cheating husband that keeps telling his lover that he is going to leave his wife, he is just waiting for the right moment, with no intention of coming through.

She can stop believing him at any time. He is still guilty of leading her on.

So HER willingness to believe a man she (a) knows is lying to his own wife, (b) knows he is lying about approaching his wife and ending his marriage any time soon (c) doesn't have a single doubt about whether the man who is cheating on his wife might be lying about his feelings for her...

SHE is blameless? She is the real victim in this (as opposed to the man's wife)?

The mistress is either stupid or in denial about what is going on which is "causing" her submissiveness. The man is not guilty for for his mistress stupidity or denial, that is HER problem. He is guilty of lying to both the mistress and his wife for his own selfish reasons.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

At least you researched.
And you are proving my point more.
May I sugggest that you read 1984 (and watch the movie) and watch Truman Show.
Like I said imagine the whole world and view shaped for you by other people.
That's what they did with the German people.
That is called propaganda and brainwashing. Sure they can resist but where will they go?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: daskakik
Who cares? The argument isn't one of powerlessness but of submission.

EXACTLY. Is the problem with Hitler having an issue with submission...? It's an issue with the German population at the time having a problem STANDING UP and instead submitting.

Since the topic of this thread involves words being powerful enough to make others act (or prevent them from acting which still requires a conscious effort), how can you blame the issue of submission on the perpetrator?

If you are NOW going to react in a knee-jerk fashion that I am trying to excuse Hitler and saying he was not the problem and did nothing wrong, then you WOULD be using emotional reasoning. Hitler was a terrible person. He alone was responsible for his actions. But you cannot act like the German population as a whole who allowed this to go on for so long had no responsibility in the matter. Can you?

Not sure of your point most Germans had no idea what was going on. And the ones that did had the SS to make sure they stayed in line. People who crossed the SS disappeared along with their family. The rest saw Hitler as a savior mostly because Europe decided to punish Germany after world war 1. Hitler to them was a freedom fighter trying to stop Europe. Very much like the position Putin put himself in today.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
At least you researched.

And you are proving my point more.
May I sugggest that you read 1984 (and watch the movie) and watch Truman Show.
Like I said imagine the whole world and view shaped for you by other people.
That's what they did with the German people.
That is called propaganda and brainwashing. Sure they can resist but where will they go?

I have not read 1984 in FULL. I have read official transcripts, heard it discussed MANY times, am aware of its major themes and events. (I have seen V for Vendetta, which many others have claimed has similar type of message in many respects)

I HAVE seen the Truman Show.

If Hitler Youth (HY) only became troublesome in 1933 and Hitler died in 1945, why are you referencing HY continually when they did not have the power to overthrow Hitler at the time of their prime?

(Maybe I AM missing something here very obvious. I can assure you I am not purposely doing it.)

originally posted by: dragonridr
Not sure of your point most Germans had no idea what was going on. And the ones that did had the SS to make sure they stayed in line. People who crossed the SS disappeared along with their family. The rest saw Hitler as a savior mostly because Europe decided to punish Germany after world war 1. Hitler to them was a freedom fighter trying to stop Europe. Very much like the position Putin put himself in today.

Are you saying Hitler played everyone so well that only when enough regular people realised he was a problem, that this realisation came at a time when it was realistically too late to do anything about?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
SHE is blameless? She is the real victim in this (as opposed to the man's wife)?

She isn't blameless. She is guilty of her actions.

The mistress is either stupid or in denial about what is going on which is "causing" her submissiveness. The man is not guilty for for his mistress stupidity or denial, that is HER problem. He is guilty of lying to both the mistress and his wife for his own selfish reasons.

Her stupidity or gullibility doesn't change anything, he is responsible for his actions.

It isn't like only one party can be at fault.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Too drunk to explain but think of North Korea as an example. Children grow up there being indoctrinated that the rest of the world is their enemy. They have propanganda blaring on tvs all day long. No way to prove them wrong.
Granted they can resist and some did (especially when they found out it's all lie) but that's rare.
That's what Hitler did to them. Same thing.
Propaganda.
If you want to control people you convince them and shape their worlds just like in 1984 and in that movie The Truman Show.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: dragonridr
Not sure of your point most Germans had no idea what was going on. And the ones that did had the SS to make sure they stayed in line. People who crossed the SS disappeared along with their family. The rest saw Hitler as a savior mostly because Europe decided to punish Germany after world war 1. Hitler to them was a freedom fighter trying to stop Europe. Very much like the position Putin put himself in today.

Are you saying Hitler played everyone so well that only when enough regular people realised he was a problem, that this realisation came at a time when it was realistically too late to do anything about?

Many didnt realize until after the war what he did. And oddly you still see it in German policy today. Germans passed laws to prevent another Hitler and today still feel guilt about it.

a reply to: daskakik

You're right, there is no way to prove if nature is ambivalent about life or death, or if nature actively encourages life over death.

We have just come down to a difference in philosophical belief, and I'm fine with that, we all have the right to our own belief system.

I choose to believe that nature actively encourages life, and that all living creatures have a right to that life.

With out life all that is left is dead, as long as there is life there can be hope.

I choose life.

originally posted by: daskakik
Her stupidity or gullibility doesn't change anything, he is responsible for his actions.

Ok, then what is the point of the argument you are making? Did I, or some other member, say: ok that guy was wrong but I'll forgive him because his mistress was stupid and that's what we really need to recogise.

It isn't like only one party can be at fault.

Agreed. Which is why I am baffled by what point you are tying to make. See above.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

Too drunk to explain but think of North Korea as an example. Children grow up there being indoctrinated that the rest of the world is their enemy. They have propanganda blaring on tvs all day long. No way to prove them wrong.
Granted they can resist and some did (especially when they found out it's all lie) but that's rare.
That's what Hitler did to them. Same thing.
Propaganda.
If you want to control people you convince them and shape their worlds just like in 1984 and in that movie The Truman Show

Hope you aren't too drunk, but as long as you are having a good time and not harming or being harmed that's good!

Ok, I'm trying to process this all. Is your problem that people living TODAY are still under the influence of Nazi beliefs (or pro-Hitler beliefs) and this is dangerous if they are able to get into a position of power?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Not my point but you just made a good point. I know this is off topic but the media shapes our perception of our world. The Antifa and the white supremacists fighting each other.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

The points were that:

There doesn't have to be a holocaust for there to be someone controlling another with lies.

Nobody said that the listener could not resist. They could even believe for a while and then stop.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
Not my point but you just made a good point. I know this is off topic but the media shapes our perception of our world. The Antifa and the white supremacists fighting each other.

I don't disagree. But now I am truly stumped. I must be overlooking something important or your argument does not hold up.

It might very well be me to blame, but let's try find out:

"Freedom of Speech and Freedom from Consequences" that is the thread we are in.

When did either of us go off topic about the content of the opening post?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

The original point by dask was convincing people to believe and follow you, thus giving you the power and control like what Hitler and Jim Jones did.

a reply to: SmilingROB

I agree with most but I think this should be expanded - "Human Life is important because We the people deem human life to be important".

While this is true, I think it goes a little bit deeper then just us, we can see in other animals that they think their lives and the lives of their packs/dens/family groups are important enough to protect and defend. Would that not indicate that the importance of life is not dependent on humans deeming it important?

And while nature has discarded many types of animals, that does not negate IMO the evidence that nature choose life, it may not be a life form that we like or value but nature saw a need for the creature so it brought it forth.