Freedom of Speech and Freedom from Consequences.

Though a speaker is to blame for uttering fallacy and falsity, the listener is always to blame for believing him.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Nothing happens when someone talks and nobody listens but also, nothing happens when there is no call to action.

We are not looking for a replacement for the "words are powerful" meme. We were trying to point out what it actually meant.

People get emotional while listening to music. So obviously the words and vibration have effect on their emotions. I mean how often do you catch yourself tapping your feet even if you don't like the music?

originally posted by: daskakik
That actually happens. Some can, some can't. Not sure what you think that proves?

It proves that the power of the individual is there, whether they believe it is or not, or have been convinced they have LOST that power permanently and can never get it back. The power to NOT remain in THAT cycle is within in them whether they believe it or not.

If it were not, then there would not be a single case of a molested child who grows into an adult who lives their life without molesting a child until they die. The feeling, compulsion (I misused this word in my last reply, I cannot edit the reply now so pretend that I used a different work) and "desire" to offend would be there their whole life and woul dbe EXTREMELY difficult to refain from doing. Ultimately though, the discussion to act lies with them.

THAT is the point and it is irrefutable with the exception that the individual is now permanently mentally insane as a result of having had that happen to them.

daskakik & Deaf Alien,

You both seem to be arguing a similar point in regards to "power" and its relation to influencing others, is that more along with what you have been saying?

If so, is your beef about allowing somebody like Hitler to be in the position of power that allows him to then do what he went on to do?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

1. Your argument was an hyperbole.
2. Those who experienced abuse throughout their childhood have painful experiences and are traumatized so they do not want to repeat it.
3. The perps are not "training" them to further victimize others.

Your argument failed. It is not the same logic as mine.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
1. Your argument was an hyperbole.
2. Those who experienced abuse throughout their childhood have painful experiences and are traumatized so they do not want to repeat it.
3. The perps are not "training" them to further victimize others.

Your argument failed. It is not the same logic as mine.

1. It was not hyperbole, it was an example of an extreme situation where a person can overcome their mindset and break the cycle they were seemingly doomed to continue. (We are not talking about 1% of victims being able to break the cycle here, we are talking about a significant number of individuals who have broken the cycle they were supposedly doomed to continue, which suggests it does NOT take EXTRAORDINARY powers to achieve.)

2. Agreed. Did I imply to the contrary?

3. Agreed. But is the perpetrator completely oblivious to the fact that what they are doing is wrong? You think there has been NO moment of hesitation on behalf of the perpetrators who COULD have stopped from what they were about to do? (In regard to the first time they were about to cross the line, not once it had been an "acceptable" pattern of behaviour they no longer needed to justify. The only exception would be people that are PURE 100% evil with no potential to change.)

I fail to see how my argument has failed after clarifying what I just have, do you still feel the same way after what I have just clarified?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

1. It was not hyperbole, it was an extreme example of a situation where a person can overcome their mindset and break the cycle they were seemingly doomed to continue.

I have already said that with help they can overcome (in the case of Christian kids).

2. Agreed. Did I imply to the contrary?

You implied that I think that. You said it was my logic that they will repeat it.

3. Agreed.

So you have agreed with me on all three points. So what are you trying to argue? I fail to see your point.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

I have already said that with help they can overcome (in the case of Christian kids).

You implied that I think that. You said it was my logic that they will repeat it.

So you have agreed with me on all three points. So what are you trying to argue? I fail to see your point.

1. So EVERY single child that has been abused while young has NOT been able to grow into an adult (without receiving counselling along the way to deal with their issues) and been able to refrain from abusing children at all? That is a dangerous argument you are making, you should review it before ensuring you agree with it.

2. It is the same logic you are using in regard to Hitler. Are you arguing that the people of Germany that did not resist could only have done so if they had visited a psychologist first? That they did not have the capability on their own to resist?

3. Hopefully this reply has further clarified the mistake in your reasoning that you are failing to see.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

You are comparing traumatized children with Hitler Youths.

That they did not have the capability on their own to resist?

Quote me where I said they couldn't resist.

Again you are comparing apples and oranges. If you can show me that the Hitler youths were abused their whole childhood then you might have a point.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Who cares? The argument isn't one of powerlessness but of submission.

a reply to: daskakik

The "words are powerful meme" is a superstition, and the superstition upon which all others are built. We pass it on to our children. People harm and stress themselves because of it. They harm others because of it. The realization that we are only harming ourselves may be too great to fathom right now, but I predict it will come along soon.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It was already explained and you seem to accept the explanation if we called it something else, "power of belief".

Now you just did a 180 because we didn't accept your semantics.

It doesn't matter who harms who and how much damage we do to ourselves, you don't make a compelling argument.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It is never the duty of the writer or publisher to weigh in advance the future possibility of violent reprisal for writing or speaking—

Yes, it is. It is ALWAYS the duty of the writer or publisher to weigh in advance the reaction to their recorded musings.

it is always, and always will be, the duty of the offended to get over their feelings before they start beating people to death.

So much nope here ...... No. The viewers and listeners are not responsible for what they are being taught.

There are people who are ill-equipped to read, let alone comprehend an intellectual level of thinking and writing. They cannot hope to refrain from their offendedness when they don't know any better due to being fed tripe from right-wing outlets like FOX and Breitbart and Infowars.

shame. shame on you.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Dark Ghost

You are comparing traumatized children with Hitler Youths.

That they did not have the capability on their own to resist?

Quote me where I said they couldn't resist.

Again you are comparing apples and oranges. If you can show me that the Hitler youths were abused their whole childhood then you might have a point.

Id say hitler youth were traumatized they were beaten and intimidated into a belief.

a reply to: dragonridr

That is probably true. (You'll have to show me that though) but that doesn't compare to Dark Ghost's accusasion that my logic is the same as theirs.
They have used propaganda and brainwashing to shape the children hence why I used the movie "Jesus Camp" as an example.
Think 1984 and Truman Show where they shape the whole world for you.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

I thought you were referring to the entire German population. Isn't that what we were discussing — that there were not enough people in the whole population willing to resist and remove him from power? Did I imply that children were the ones to be expected to resist?

Edit: This is why I emphasised in my earlier reply that the analogy I was about to use was not directly applicable, but the LOGIC that justifies contemplating the use of such an analogy was.

originally posted by: daskakik
Who cares? The argument isn't one of powerlessness but of submission.

EXACTLY. Is the problem with Hitler having an issue with submission...? It's an issue with the German population at the time having a problem STANDING UP and instead submitting.

Since the topic of this thread involves words being powerful enough to make others act (or prevent them from acting which still requires a conscious effort), how can you blame the issue of submission on the perpetrator?

If you are NOW going to react in a knee-jerk fashion that I am trying to excuse Hitler and saying he was not the problem and did nothing wrong, then you WOULD be using emotional reasoning. Hitler was a terrible person. He alone was responsible for his actions. But you cannot act like the German population as a whole who allowed this to go on for so long had no responsibility in the matter. Can you?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Daskakik's original point was that if you convince people that they are under your power, then they are under power and they will do anything you tell them to do.
And I added that propaganda and brainwashing will push that.
You need to read 1984 sometimes.
Imagine the whole world growing up thinking that everyone outside your society is the enemy like North Korea.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
Daskakik's original point was that if you convince people that they are under your power, then they are under power and they will do anything you tell them to do.
And I added that propaganda and brainwashing will push that.
You need to read 1984 sometimes.
Imagine the whole world growing up thinking that everyone outside your society is the enemy like North Korea.

How long did Hitlers rise to power and actual power last? (Go ahead, combine the two if you like, just give me an approximation).