Dove Soap Ad Features Transgender Mom, Facebook Censors Critics

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Oh I was using their definition of "normal". But anyway good night.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
*snip*
If we were having this conversation in person that could end up getting your mouth slapped. "Oppression" what a luke warm reactionary response to the concept of merited violence, I imagine you saying that with a soft lispy voice. In most places of the world it is clear understood that being expressly rude,disrespectful and offensive is a good way to be "oppressed".*snip*

So, you condone violence to censor the free speech of others? Anyone you deem offensive, you can attack at will? What was all that about tolerance???

You want tolerance then you need to give it to get it, bottom line is that I don't like you or your opinion so take that however you want. I have no respect for you or your misguided meanderings. I had forgot I had said that but I was obviously at a point of frustration and I've had to fight my whole childhood against bullies so I apologize if in the course of my life I have found that violence on occasion is the only way to effectively repel the relentless onslaughts of bullies.

I also have no respect for cowards who will let someone repeatedly stomp on them and put them down without ever defending themselves. Those people hide behind the ones that are willing to do what is necessary to protect them from the ones that would bulldoze over them just for the pure enjoyment they get out of it. So yeah maybe I am a savage or brutal but at least I'm not a spineless coward that thinks they can just say and do whatever they want without consequences. It's like being a mean spirited little intellectual with a vast vocabulary and using that power to verbally beat on someone twice your size and think that is going to work out well for you. Just because you can doesn't mean you should and just because someone shouldn't doesn't mean that they won't.

Anyone that knows me knows I have zero tolerance for bullies. I don't have to agree with you to believe that you deserve common courtesy, or to not be mistreated. What you want isn't tolerance; it's agreement. I will not agree with someone who believes they are not the sex they were born, and no, I don't need any discussion or debate on the claimed differences between sex and gender, either. We aren't going to agree there. I'd no more agree with that than I would someone claiming they were a cat, or a pony, or whatever. They aren't, no mater how they feel about it. Nor do I believe society should have to change to suit the perceptions of such individuals. If some guy believes he's a bat, should we allow him to jump off a building to try and fly?

There will always be people who put others down, and there will always be people who disagree. Disagreement isn't an insult. Either case, it's part of life. We can refrain from being that way toward others, but we cannot prevent all such attitudes. Speaking is NOT an excuse for physical violence, however. Saying someone is wrong, or stating a different political opinion, or disagreeing on these "gender" issues, is not cause to attack someone. It is no more right for you to do so than it would be for someone to attack you for what you say and believe.

Verbal communication on these threads isn't an attack. This site is very good at keeping that sort of thing under control, far more than are many others. Again, disagreeing isn't attacking. If you feel that it is, perhaps avoiding these discussions would be better for you, for awhile? When a topic is too heated, why bring yourself the extra stress? Personally, I just walk away from those. I have nothing against you, though we do not agree on much. Probably a few things, but not much. That's alright. Some of the best debate is with people who have very different ideas. I'm not going to agree, but I can still listen to your issues, and try and understand.

Problem with pronouns is that now sjws have generated an infinity of fictional pronouns they want used, and some threaten people with their livelihood if they don't keep up with an infinite number of pronouns.

Regards biological sex, again, iirc, a single gene in the Y chromosome fails and a male is born with a female body and treated as female by society. It is just a single instruction written in a molecule.

It shouldn't matter, but as I've said if hormones aren't started in puberty, odds are the person will end up looking like they belong to the biological sex they were born with.

I'll repeat myself, a feminine man can be quite attractive, but a masculine woman, is rarely so. Often the butt of jokes, short of brain transplant or lucking out on low testosterone, it is simply quite an issue not starting early on hormones.

All surgery currently carries risk, and I'm not sure gender reassignment surgery is at an adequate state of accuracy yet. Eventually tissue engineering will allow even for reproductive capability, but it is not there yet.

If a woman looks like a man, or if a man looks like a woman, short of being corrected or carrying gender specific clothes, it is pretty much impossible not to call someone, at least at first interaction, for what they appear to be.

a reply to: Xenogears

Problem with pronouns is that now sjws have generated an infinity of fictional pronouns they want used, and some threaten people with their livelihood if they don't keep up with an infinite number of pronouns.

Citation needed.
How many pronouns are out there?

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Meee32

Wanting to be treated with respect is an unreasonable demand?

It's not an unreasonable expectation, but neither is it an immediate outcome.

Respect is earned through actions and demeanor.

You make a very good point. Trans, Gay, Lesbian, etc...everyone deserves respect unless they prove otherwise. But no one is required to "accept" or "consider normal" another person's actions or made up persona. Especially when it is a group just about as fringe as those who believe they are aliens.

Use of the word "normal" is so interesting in these discussions. Of course, we all use the word daily, so much that it becomes second nature ... if we were forced to give a synonym for the way most of us actually use the word, we'd say "expected" or "regular."

If we're honest, however, we all also know that the application of the word "abnormal" denotes "wrong" or "dangerous" or usually "diseased."

The coy retreat into the idea that we're just using "normal" or "abnormal" in this context in the statistical sense is pure absurdity.

There are many characteristics that have a low frequency. Ambidexterity or cross-handedness is extremely rare (less than 1%) yet we don't try to deny that ambidextrous people have the same rights as any other person. The same with red hair.

Yet, we discriminate unfairly against those with a different gender identity. So no, these actions and cultural attitudes are not MERELY because Trans* folks are different or have a low incidence in the population ... and then try to pretend that is the reason for challenge or disgust.

... nope. This is pure cisgender identity politics at work which tells us that the only acceptable identities are Male and Female based on gross anatomy (or among some slightly more sophisticated bigotry, chromosomes).

There are variations on the norm in the population. You don't have a right to discriminate against people who are different. When you try to, eventually, they're going to stand up for their rights. If that means they show up in a soap commercial, so be it. No one is asking for your acceptance (although there is no reason not to accept that other people are different than yourself). We do expect and demand, however, equal treatment.

originally posted by: JDmOKI
I'm sure cavemen or "cave people" really sat down and socially couldnt acceptig their gender. These are all modern social issues and I'm gonna estimate half or less of people today actually truly are transgender, which I'm not denying people are transgender.And don't act smug and talk down to me

And how would your little analogy account for what is known as 'two-spirited people' in the First Nations community?
I cite them as they would appear to pre-date your "socially driven gender issues".
...you know...as a man of science and all.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Use of the word "normal" is so interesting in these discussions.

It's almost as if people want to be able to use the word as an out. Legitimately

I'm going to miss my mark I'm pretty sure. But, whatever. We all grow up with a cultural normal

Years ago I was at an airport with some friends who were Arab, and leaving to go back home after having been here for some time. We had all become good friends, and it was a mix of Middle Easterners and Americans sending them off and saying goodbye. The Arab friends (all men) hugged and kissed each other goodbye. When they went to do the same with one of their non-Arab, regular all American Joe friends, the guy actually recoiled. Then he blushed, looked at his shoes, stammered something, then shook hands. It was awkward - and funny - and a little sad. These were good friends

One of the guys laughed and asked: Mike - are you afraid of me?

Redheads still get a lot of crap :-)

People are resistant to what's different (according to them) and change. If you throw eternal damnation and the wrath of God into the mix - then you have people conditioned to not only resist changing their thinking, but to rationalize a billion or so reasons why they shouldn't have to even think about it

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

The human condition.

I know that humans are meant to overcome their baser animal instincts....but seriously, you are talking about hardwiring that stretches back millions of years, is seen in other species, and has kept us alive.

With some people, its even a psychological issue relating to The Uncanny Valley. My son, for example, recoils at relatively benign images such as:



I think we SHOULD respect others. But in the search for that mutual respect we can't lose that everyone else has their own issues that they struggle with, some of which may impact their ability to deal with others for various reasons. When I had shingles my oldest son wouldn't come near me due to his trypophobia....it was what it was. And we still loved each other.

originally posted by: JDmOKI
POST REMOVED BY STAFF

I'm sorry that hurts your feelings, but but I think it's a lot more appropriate to state that homophobia is a social construct and that it likely stems from a fear of one's own personal gender fluidity. Two-spirited individuals occurring in FN hunter-gatherer societies may have attained status because of their nature...but would not seem to have indulged that nature as a result of being in an elite. You're putting the cart before the horse. And you're wrong.

And neither 'cavemen' or H-G societies need to have been considered 'poor'.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Left-handedess is interesting in this context. It occurs in about 10% of the population. (I used cross-handedness and ambidexterity above for a comparable percentage.).

The world is unnecessarily complicated in some aspects for left-handed people in most Western cultures.

In some cultures, however, left-handedness means you have real problems at meals, because one eats with the right hand and cleans oneself (ahem) with the left. Using your left hand to eat with is ... disgusting.

300 years ago, left-handers were thought of as witches. There's a reason that sinister means left.

Now, bring all that into consideration in the present. What would happen, in America, if we suddenly declared that left-handed people couldn't eat in restaurants for health reasons? What if we declared that left-handers were all Satan worshippers?

Well, most people would call us crazy, right?

Culture.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I'll just drop this here (in support):

First Homosexual Caveman Found - UK Telegraph

(The article, in my mind, conflates homosexuality and transgendered .... but still. )

a reply to: Gryphon66

FOr the most part im ambidextrous, although like most its not "complete" as im more apt with my left hand.

In elementary school they tried to make me into a rightie. My grandmother, a very outspoken woman (she would never let her spirit be broke...tough old broad) heard news of it and "dealt with" the teacher by reading her the riot act in a fairly public manner.

Since handedness wasn't supposed to be in the curriculum, the force training stopped. But you can see why i am the way I am....the individualism is genetic. LOL. Nonetheless, it wasn't that long ago that teachers used religious bias to try to change handedness in their students. I'd bet that there are more lefties that we statistically see, due to this. At least 5 of the 50 kids I graduated with were lefties that were forced to be righties. Once of them actually switched to left handed throwing and found he wasn't bad with his arm. Same with bowling...once he switched he was a pretty good bowler.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Perfect example.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Both of those examples are interesting. I've heard something similar about the Valley before involving dolls - and clowns. I've wondered about whether or not this has something to do with death. Human - but not any more

About the Trypophobia - so interesting because I'm attracted to those things. It's about pattern, and something I can't quite put my finger on. I use a lot of that in my art

So, what we know is people are different. There are things that are innate, instinctual, biological, psychological...god knows what all else and how many layers or combinations of those things go into making us all what we are

I'm working on being more tolerant of the intolerant :-)

But still - onward ever onward. People shouldn't be made to suffer because other people think they're weird

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Xenogears

Problem with pronouns is that now sjws have generated an infinity of fictional pronouns they want used, and some threaten people with their livelihood if they don't keep up with an infinite number of pronouns.

Citation needed.

How many pronouns are out there?

Wasn't there even a guy that wanted his desired pronoun to be addressed as his majesty?

a reply to: Xenogears

That doesn't translate into it being common among the LGBT folks. Even LGBT don't accept some people who think they're animals.

I'll cop to some honesty here ... I have a real personal issue with using alternate pronouns.

The last thing that I'd want to do to anyone who hasn't disrespected me is to disrespect them.

However, our culture is only at the beginning of learning how to properly address variant gender identities.

THere are languages that have long incorporated solutions ... but American English is not one of them.

And "it" just isn't a reasonable solution, as that's considered to be a reference to a non-human thing.

I have no issue with someone telling me that they prefer feminine (or masculine reference).

I've adjusted (this was the one that got me in trouble) to referring to individuals as "they or them."

... and one of the last things I react well to is anybody getting in my face the first time we meet telling me that I'm wrong. LOL. (And many times the second, tenth and hundredth time we meet, lol)

But the pronouns (like the bathrooms) are a minor thing to adjust to. If someone wanted me to refer to them as Xe, Xim, or Xwatsis ... I don't' care. Inform me respectfully and I'll address you respectfully.

The presence of a Transwoman in the Dove ad? Doesn't affect me in any shape form or fashion.

Who pees in the stall beside me. Doesn't matter. I hate public bathrooms anyway.

Ha, he was suspended again for the same post after it was restored and an apology was given.

They just can't make up their minds, can they? Free speech in one hand, liberal agenda in another. Decisions!