Dear Scotland,

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Scottish people should stop looking at the EU referendum as a scottish vote, it wasn't - the UK voted as a single entity...this was decided before the EU referendum when 55% of Scots voted to remain part of the union.

EU ref wasn't a Scottish vote.

It really pisses me off, that we have an ignorant and selfish 45% who believe they have more rights than the majority.

They pretend they're patriotic, yet they'd happily see the wishes of the majority be trodden on and ignored.

Westminster SHOULD block another indy ref, they'd be acting on behalf of the eloctorate if they did.

What kind of patriot doesn't respect the rights and wishes of 55% of the nation they pretend they care so much about?

Aren't people allowed to change their minds?

Why do we bother keep having elections? Should still have the Whig party in charge.

Who said people have changed their minds?

By that standard we should have a referendum every couple of years forever.

Tell me, if the nationalists finally get their way and win...will the unionists be able to call for an equal number of referendums to reform the union?

How many should we have before we decide enough is enough?

By these standars, if Scots get another referendum and win..that's two chances they were given...so we can then have two more referendums in favour of unionisation...fair's fair, right?

Who has changed their mind? I haven't...

Don't you think leaving the EU counts a major change of circumstances?

For who?

For pretty much everyone in the UK i would imagine.

Exaclty...the UK - not Scotland.

The UK voted in the EU referendum...and they voted to leave.

So what's your point? The people are getting what the majority voted for...again, this is called democracy, it's not hard...is it?

And the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

Given the magnitude of the decision do you not think democracy would entail at least giving Scotland the choice of what is more important, staying in the the UK or staying in the EU?

No...you're still looking at this situation from the persepctive of a Scot when you're British, that's the problem here.

You didn't or shouldn't have voted from that perspective, that wasn't the question - the question was should the UK remain part of the EU...not Scotland.

Why should England not get another vote, or Wales?

Why didn't we all vote as separate nations? The answers lies therein.

No I fully understand it was a UK referendum and that means that the UK is leaving. At no single point have I said otherwise.

That however in no way precludes Scotland having a separate vote on independence.

But we already had one...this is such a circular and pointless argument.

Fact is, you will go on about this until you get your way.

If Scotland get another referendum they're stting a precedent, if they win, I fully expect unionists to play the same game and call for at least two more referendums....where does it end?

Will you ever happily accept the result? Or will you only accept when it's the result you want?

Do you consider yourself a patriot at all? If so, why do you continually disregard the wished of 55% of your fellow countrymen?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

And the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

What you fail to understand is that It wasn't a Scottish vote

It was a vote for the WHOLE of the *United Kingdom* all

four (England Scotland Wales and Ireland) countries TOGETHER.

Given the magnitude of the decision do you not think democracy would entail at least giving Scotland the choice of what is more important, staying in the the UK or staying in the EU?

How do you make out it wasnt democractic? Everyone had a vote and of

those who voted the majority won!! simples..........

a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

As i said earlier it IS up to the Scottish people, but the majority of Scottish people have already voted and they voted to stay part of the UK.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Scottish people should stop looking at the EU referendum as a scottish vote, it wasn't - the UK voted as a single entity...this was decided before the EU referendum when 55% of Scots voted to remain part of the union.

EU ref wasn't a Scottish vote.

It really pisses me off, that we have an ignorant and selfish 45% who believe they have more rights than the majority.

They pretend they're patriotic, yet they'd happily see the wishes of the majority be trodden on and ignored.

Westminster SHOULD block another indy ref, they'd be acting on behalf of the eloctorate if they did.

What kind of patriot doesn't respect the rights and wishes of 55% of the nation they pretend they care so much about?

Aren't people allowed to change their minds?

Why do we bother keep having elections? Should still have the Whig party in charge.

Who said people have changed their minds?

By that standard we should have a referendum every couple of years forever.

Tell me, if the nationalists finally get their way and win...will the unionists be able to call for an equal number of referendums to reform the union?

How many should we have before we decide enough is enough?

By these standars, if Scots get another referendum and win..that's two chances they were given...so we can then have two more referendums in favour of unionisation...fair's fair, right?

Who has changed their mind? I haven't...

Don't you think leaving the EU counts a major change of circumstances?

For who?

For pretty much everyone in the UK i would imagine.

Exaclty...the UK - not Scotland.

The UK voted in the EU referendum...and they voted to leave.

So what's your point? The people are getting what the majority voted for...again, this is called democracy, it's not hard...is it?

And the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

Given the magnitude of the decision do you not think democracy would entail at least giving Scotland the choice of what is more important, staying in the the UK or staying in the EU?

No...you're still looking at this situation from the persepctive of a Scot when you're British, that's the problem here.

You didn't or shouldn't have voted from that perspective, that wasn't the question - the question was should the UK remain part of the EU...not Scotland.

Why should England not get another vote, or Wales?

Why didn't we all vote as separate nations? The answers lies therein.

No I fully understand it was a UK referendum and that means that the UK is leaving. At no single point have I said otherwise.

That however in no way precludes Scotland having a separate vote on independence.

But we already had one...this is such a circular and pointless argument.

Fact is, you will go on about this until you get your way.

If Scotland get another referendum they're stting a precedent, if they win, I fully expect unionists to play the same game and call for at least two more referendums....where does it end?

Will you ever happily accept the result? Or will you only accept when it's the result you want?

Do you consider yourself a patriot at all? If so, why do you continually disregard the wished of 55% of your fellow countrymen?

Patriotism has nothing to do with my support for Scottish independence either way.

There has been a major change in circumstances since the last referendum. The SNP who one the last election included in their manifesto that they would call for a new referendum if their was such a change. If think another referendum is entirely legitimacy in those circumstances.

Personally i think there should be firm constitutional rules on referendums. However as we live in the UK no such rules exist.

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

a reply to: eletheia

See my earlier reply to HeathenJessie.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Scottish people should stop looking at the EU referendum as a scottish vote, it wasn't - the UK voted as a single entity...this was decided before the EU referendum when 55% of Scots voted to remain part of the union.

EU ref wasn't a Scottish vote.

It really pisses me off, that we have an ignorant and selfish 45% who believe they have more rights than the majority.

They pretend they're patriotic, yet they'd happily see the wishes of the majority be trodden on and ignored.

Westminster SHOULD block another indy ref, they'd be acting on behalf of the eloctorate if they did.

What kind of patriot doesn't respect the rights and wishes of 55% of the nation they pretend they care so much about?

Aren't people allowed to change their minds?

Why do we bother keep having elections? Should still have the Whig party in charge.

Who said people have changed their minds?

By that standard we should have a referendum every couple of years forever.

Tell me, if the nationalists finally get their way and win...will the unionists be able to call for an equal number of referendums to reform the union?

How many should we have before we decide enough is enough?

By these standars, if Scots get another referendum and win..that's two chances they were given...so we can then have two more referendums in favour of unionisation...fair's fair, right?

Who has changed their mind? I haven't...

Don't you think leaving the EU counts a major change of circumstances?

For who?

For pretty much everyone in the UK i would imagine.

Exaclty...the UK - not Scotland.

The UK voted in the EU referendum...and they voted to leave.

So what's your point? The people are getting what the majority voted for...again, this is called democracy, it's not hard...is it?

And the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

Given the magnitude of the decision do you not think democracy would entail at least giving Scotland the choice of what is more important, staying in the the UK or staying in the EU?

No...you're still looking at this situation from the persepctive of a Scot when you're British, that's the problem here.

You didn't or shouldn't have voted from that perspective, that wasn't the question - the question was should the UK remain part of the EU...not Scotland.

Why should England not get another vote, or Wales?

Why didn't we all vote as separate nations? The answers lies therein.

No I fully understand it was a UK referendum and that means that the UK is leaving. At no single point have I said otherwise.

That however in no way precludes Scotland having a separate vote on independence.

But we already had one...this is such a circular and pointless argument.

Fact is, you will go on about this until you get your way.

If Scotland get another referendum they're stting a precedent, if they win, I fully expect unionists to play the same game and call for at least two more referendums....where does it end?

Will you ever happily accept the result? Or will you only accept when it's the result you want?

Do you consider yourself a patriot at all? If so, why do you continually disregard the wished of 55% of your fellow countrymen?

Patriotism has nothing to do with my support for Scottish independence either way.

There has been a major change in circumstances since the last referendum. The SNP who one the last election included in their manifesto that they would call for a new referendum if their was such a change. If think another referendum is entirely legitimacy in those circumstances.

Personally i think there should be firm constitutional rules on referendums. However as we live in the UK no such rules exist.

Well, unfortunately your personal opinions are as valid as anyones...completely meaningless.

All that matters are the results, and results are what they are.

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

As i said earlier it IS up to the Scottish people, but the majority of Scottish people have already voted and they voted to stay part of the UK.

And circumstances have changed since the last independence vote.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Funnily enough we don't make major constitutional changes based on TV interviews.

Maybe not ..... But it is the *people* who vote and they are the ones

who dont have the stomach for yet another referendum.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

You seem to have failed to read or understand my earlier reply. Where i have i said that Scotland should have had a separate vote on leaving the EU?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

You seem to have failed to read or understand my earlier reply. Where i have i said that Scotland should have had a separate vote on leaving the EU?

No...you fail to understand the simple point I made.

This is the question that a lot of Scots apparently did answer then they voted in the EU referendum...I thought I'd made that perfectly clear.

Yours was a UK vote, not a Scottish vote.

So why fixate on how many Scots voted to remain in the EU when it was a UK wide vote?

You're the one saying that...you and many other Scots apparently did not fully understand the question.

Stop looking at it from a Scottish persective and I'll stop making legitimate points like that.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Funnily enough we don't make major constitutional changes based on TV interviews.

Maybe not ..... But it is the *people* who vote and they are the ones

who dont have the stomach for yet another referendum.

People you have seen on telly are the whole of the electorate?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Then could i ask, why would (I'm assuming how you would vote of course) you or Scotland for that matter want to break up the UK but remain in the EU, I'm sorry i just don't get that logic at all.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot


This seems pretty clear cut to me, Scotland had a referendum they voted to stay part of the UK, the UK had a referendum they voted to leave the EU, the UK is leaving the EU based on the result of that referendum there isn't a second vote the same should apply to the Scottish indyref.

septicscot doesn't care...voted in the EU referendum as a Scot, answered the wrong question, not realising the question was about the UK and not Scotland as a single entity.

The ultimate irony...the majorty Scots who voted in the EU ref should have their votes completely invalidated as they didn't asnwer the question legitimately, they answered their own version of that question...

Should Scotland remain part of the EU.

You can't even answer that simple question properly, had no place voting n any referendum. You don't define the question, it comes pre-defined, you simply answer it...a simple yes or no and you still made a complete mess of it.

You seem to have failed to read or understand my earlier reply. Where i have i said that Scotland should have had a separate vote on leaving the EU?

No...you fail to understand the simple point I made.

This is the question that a lot of Scots apparently did answer then they voted in the EU referendum...I thought I'd made that perfectly clear.

Yours was a UK vote, not a Scottish vote.

So why fixate on how many Scots voted to remain in the EU when it was a UK wide vote?

You're the one saying that...you and many other Scots apparently did not fully understand the question.

Stop looking at it from a Scottish persective and I'll stop making legitimate points like that.

No you seem to be the one fixating on the EU referendum.

My point is that as we are leaving the EU circumstances have changed since the last independence referendum.

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot

Then could i ask, why would (I'm assuming how you would vote of course) you or Scotland for that matter want to break up the UK but remain in the EU, I'm sorry i just don't get that logic at all.

What bit don't you get? Not being sarcastic is a genuine question.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot

Then could i ask, why would (I'm assuming how you would vote of course) you or Scotland for that matter want to break up the UK but remain in the EU, I'm sorry i just don't get that logic at all.

What bit don't you get? Not being sarcastic is a genuine question.

That Scottish people who do want to leave the UK because of being controlled by Westminster but still want to remain a part the the EU where they will have even less say on their affairs.

And i don't think you are being sarcastic asking this, we are all adults here if we cant ask questions of each other then we get nowhere

originally posted by: nickovthenorth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot

Then could i ask, why would (I'm assuming how you would vote of course) you or Scotland for that matter want to break up the UK but remain in the EU, I'm sorry i just don't get that logic at all.

What bit don't you get? Not being sarcastic is a genuine question.

That Scottish people who do want to leave the UK because of being controlled by Westminster but still want to remain a part the the EU where they will have even less say on their affairs.

Because it is a total myth that we would have less say.

a reply to: EvanB

She , like her predecessor has her eyes firmly set on the history books regardless of the implications for Scotland , we are stronger together but Sturgeon seems determined to throw that away in pursuit of an unrealistic pipe dream.

Her EU dream is just a dream and as such will fade to nothing if Scotland ever wakes up to a future of independence , the self interest of other EU nations will see to that but Sturgeon chooses to ignore that fact in her pursuit of glory and a place in history.

United we stand divided they fall.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
My point is that as we are leaving the EU circumstances have changed since the last independence referendum.

Thats life..... things are constantly changing, thats the nature of the beast

and sometimes we have to take the bad with the good!

But it is not a possibility to have a referendum every time things dont go your

way, its political swings and roundabouts.

Sometimes 'Life's just a bitch'

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: nickovthenorth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: ScepticScot

Then could i ask, why would (I'm assuming how you would vote of course) you or Scotland for that matter want to break up the UK but remain in the EU, I'm sorry i just don't get that logic at all.

What bit don't you get? Not being sarcastic is a genuine question.

That Scottish people who do want to leave the UK because of being controlled by Westminster but still want to remain a part the the EU where they will have even less say on their affairs.

Because it is a total myth that we would have less say.

And you know this how? the way the EU is heading it could be a huge error in judgment to make this presumption or it could be the best thing since sliced bread but its a big gamble in my opinion.