Female athletes crushed by 'women who were once men'

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Well at least I agree with this(and the previous) 100%.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Psych meds typically do not 'cure' the problem.

Now here is the question, if tomorrow they find a cure, and they are able to make it go away ... does that make it a mental illness? Should everyone take the medication?

Personally speaking, who I am and my core fundamental identity and sense of self was not a "problem" that needed to be "cured". There was/is nothing wrong with my mind, my thinking, mental processes or connections with reality so I'd be pretty skeptical of a "cure" that would turn me into someone else because there's never been anything wrong with who I am. You can't fix what ain't broke. If I could magically go back in time and change one thing about myself, it would be to have been born with a vagina which would have sparred me a lot of crap to deal with. I would never want a pill to make me something I wasn't.

Taking a medication to entirely change someone's identity, and not just their gender identity but their identity as a whole seems pretty unethical to me. Besides that, if gender dysphoria is a result of fetal brain development and structures, as the leading body of evidence suggests, how are you going to "fix" that. (Lobotomy and ECT has been tried already)

All this debate of whether gender dysphoria is a mental illness or not really doesn't matter except for the social stigma of people thinking you are sick or broken. As someone that has never known anything different, it all feels very normal and organic and it's kind of hard to imagine my entire successful life of 62 years on this planet has been the result of an "illness" or some hella long pervasive delusion and I refuse to accept that.

ETA: Gender dysphoria DOES actually go away in some people, especially children.

Not as much as people have been led to believe but yes, it does happen. Dr. Johanna Olsen-Kennedy of the Children's Medical Hospital in LA recently said that of the nearly 2000 trans kids she has had under her care, only 3 that went on puberty blockers have desisted. None of her patients that have actually started HRT have done so and clinics across the country report similar findings.

The End of the Desistance Myth

Transgender kids show consistent gender identity across measures

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I presume you have legitimate sources to back up your post or are you part of the growing trend on ATS of presenting feelings as facts?

originally posted by: Freija
Not as much as people have been led to believe but yes, it does happen. Dr. Johanna Olsen-Kennedy of the Children's Medical Hospital in LA recently said that of the nearly 2000 trans kids she has had under her care, only 3 that went on puberty blockers have desisted. None of her patients that have actually started HRT have done so

So those who started treatment. That removes them from consideration as that is a tainted sample.

As to the parts of your post I deleted, as I said, I am not debating the mental illness aspect other than to say it's fallacious to claim it can't be because it has a physical cause.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: burdman30ott6

I presume you have legitimate sources to back up your post or are you part of the growing trend on ATS of presenting feelings as facts?

Feelings as facts? No, I am not the one who buckled to emotionally driven political pressure to change scientific definitions of mental disorders prior to any tangible, reproduceable scientific research to support those changes.

www.adaa.org...

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
So those who started treatment. That removes them from consideration as that is a tainted sample.

Oh, I see. You want control groups of suffering transgender children with depression and anxiety at risk of suicide and other self-harming behaviors to have proven therapies withheld to meet your statistical criteria of what counts.

You are a monster.

Single click. Double post.

a reply to: Freija

Uh, everyone is susceptible to depression and anxiety at risk of suicide and other self-harming behavior. Your special group really isn't that special.

a reply to: Freija

Ad-hom and made up lies. Good try though.

Your statistics are about as bad as the 80-90% stats that get thrown around.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

Feelings as facts? No, I am not the one who buckled to emotionally driven political pressure to change scientific definitions of mental disorders prior to any tangible, reproduceable scientific research to support those changes.

www.adaa.org...

We are talking about gender dysphoria but yet you link to an article about BDD trying to conflate the two conditions - AGAIN!

The classification of gender dysphoria as a mental illness was changed in the DSM-5 as a result of more research and greater medical understanding of it. This political pressure you speak of did not come from transgender people themselves, it came from medical professionals in the field that have studied it. The only reason it was not dropped from the DSM entirely as homosexuality was in 1973 is that the successful treatment of severe gender dysphoria does require medical intervention and diagnostic codes, insurance coverage, etc.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I am a healthcare professional with over 30 years of experience. You have presented a webpage that is aimed at Joe Public concerning BDD which is not gender dysphoria btw. Like many on ATS I suspect you scurried off to find a webpage which you think supports your feelings when challenged. In this case you have failed miserably. Try harder next time.

As to the accusation I have buckled emotionally under political pressure? What a strange thing to post. What the # has politics got to do with evidenced based research?

I give up. You all can go take a hike and wallow in your willful ignorance.

Just know this, outside of the medical and research communities, you're not going to find more than a handful of people that know more about this subject or have more experience with it than I do and if you are unwilling to engage in intelligent conversation with someone that is knowledgeable and considered an elder in this realm, then I might as well talk to a wall or take a nap because your minds are so locked shut, it isn't worth my time or the hours I've already spent here today trying to lift your understanding of these issues.

Some of you are more interested in baiting and arguing that learning anything new and evaluating your own opinions and quite simply, I don't have time for fools that fail to take of opportunities to deny ignorance.

a reply to: Morrad

The last sentence paints the issue beautifully.

Republican=My body.

That's my political take. Who want's to challenge it? This isn't the same as the despicable abortion baby murderer strawmans;

It's actually worse if you think about it. It shows Christian Narrative has allowed anyone the GOP disagrees with to just call them mentally insane; even with doubt.

a reply to: Morrad

My "opinions" on this topic formed during the decades in which all healthcare professionals supported that it is a mental disorder, you remember? Basically all of psychology medicine history prior to about a decade ago when the topic started to be discussed for removal from the DSM not because of any new science, but rather because "transgenders were facing discrimination and stigma" because of the mental illness diagnosis. They change was made in absence of science, based on emotions and feels, and the medical community has been spit balling for a desperate piece of scientific data to support the change ever since. For the record, the above is well documented in last year's WHO debate over reclassify ingredients this psychological illness.

When I say "politics" I'm referring to the act of petitioning for changes to take place under pressure of numbers rather than logic.

a reply to: MacK80

Yet this thread isn't about "your body," it is about forcing other people to accommodate choices that are beyond the normal background noises of society. Even the ADA has limitations, for instance people confined to beds don't have a reasonable expectation that businesses will accommodate hospital beds to fit through their doors and store aisles.

Read the wp article, and further research, it seems transgender MTF athletes must keep testosterone at or below cisgender women natural levels.

But it seems there is another issue that emerges, those who're born with ambiguous sex, are apparently exempt from testosterone regulations, as the limits were apparently removed, or so some say.

So those born with ambiguous physical sex, will apparently have an advantage over both cis and trans athletes. Particularly hyperandrogenous women.

Caster Semenya, 25, a South African runner, is tipped to win the 800m But the athlete has ignited a debate about gender at the Olympic Games Semenya has testosterone levels three times the normal level in women She has no womb or ovaries but rather internal testes due to abnormality

Link to article

Forgive me here for I may be wrong but from my understanding and this will be aimed more at Women born women but want to identify as a man so they can join a male sport.

If that is the case and from what I gather here from reading parts of this thread women that are becoming men to play in a male sport are taking growth supplements to increase of muscle mass, thickening the skeletal frame , and testosterone increasments. Wouldn't this be considered types of PED's? "Performance enhancing drugs"

If that is the case men in professional sports, or any sports for that matter are banned from using those, they are not permitted in sports in general. So why should a women identifying as a man be able to do that if men are not allowed to do it.

So if they are allowed to do it then everyone should if they mean what they say in us all being equal... I may be off here but just throwing it out their.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: hutch622

I think the point of the article was even if an outtie is turned into an innie, the bones and muscles remain the same.

Erm, I'm a 5'8 male...

My bones are not that large in comparison to many women...



You bring no scientific fact to these discussions.

many sports have weight limits involved thus the person your fighting against is on an equal playing field. what this is stating though is that if u have a 5'8" male vs a 5'8" female then the male will still have a physiological advantage due to those larger bones and such.

a reply to: Elmax227

Again, the simple answer is that anyone taking hormones not naturally a part of your body and its cycles shouldn't be taking part in serious competitions because it's hard to figure out exactly where the natural stops and the tampered with begins.

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