How does prayer work?

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Woodcarver

You keep talking about science but science doesn't agree with you - it has moved on from Newtonian physics.

Funny enough, your idea of, "only physical things affect change in physical systems", was conceive by a spiritualist.

Today, there is no longer any grand scientific consensus of what ultimately affects change.

e.g. In Quantum Field Theory, the understanding is that fields ultimately affect change. But the fields themselves? They're not made of physical things.

Do you hold any degrees in quantum physics?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

You use the term "blind faith" in ways that are alien to my faith .Faith has a trust component to it you may not be considering .

Blind faith is decribing your trust in something that cannot be proven. I think that it is an accurate description seeing as how gods and prayer cannot be proven.

a reply to: Woodcarver

If one who is scientifically literate were to tackle this problem, would it even be possible to prove?

They do, every single day. Most of the modern day research in neurology, psychology, zoology, theology, philosophy, even businesses like the movie industry, music industry, AAA Games..

How do you think cognitive behavioral therapy works? Same as prayer.. Do you believe in psychology?

I said it in a simple way;" IF YOU LACK THE UNDERSTANDING DO NOT USE YOUR EXPERIENCE TO UNDERSTAND IT "

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: Woodcarver

Prayer is on one level sending out information on telepathic/entangled channels that can be intercepted both inside the body and outside. Fortunately the effect is set on lower scales than it could have been so that people are not hurting themselves with lack of control.

Can you cite your scientifically supported studies of these claims? This sounds like woo and i do not know anyone who would corroborate these claims. If these are just your opinions, you should say so.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

But because science doesn't have a answer to your questions on prayer you ask people who do pray and believe it works and then impose you suitcase of scientific tools to explain it back to you . That is like using a screw drive for the job of a maul .Do the tools of one type of mechanic work for other types ? in some cases yes but in some you need special tools .Scientific tools don't fit or work in metaphysics . its that simple .

So which tools would you recomend to prove any of your claims?

a reply to: Woodcarver

I hope you don't mind me replying in a completely unscientific way.

And this is all maybes.

I think that there is something to this reality that is beyond the physical. I don't think at this point in time that this entity is even measurable by science. It will not be proven or disproved by science.

Still all in a context of maybe....

There is something in this reality that is not observable by our scientific instruments, but it is there. Everyone has experienced it on a subconscious level and a few are able to experience it on a conscious level. No one talks about it and for some reason it appears to be taboo. It is something of the spirit or something of the soul.

Blind faith is decribing your trust in something that cannot be proven

Im wondering something, i have a question about chemistry. A person who has far more real life experience than i have, written books, over 20 years of research, instead of me looking up the information online, ill ask him. I walk in blind faith.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Woodcarver

If one who is scientifically literate were to tackle this problem, would it even be possible to prove?

They do, every single day. Most of the modern day research in neurology, psychology, zoology, theology, philosophy, even businesses like the movie industry, music industry, AAA Games..

How do you think cognitive behavioral therapy works? Same as prayer.. Do you believe in psychology?

I said it in a simple way;" IF YOU LACK THE UNDERSTANDING DO NOT USE YOUR EXPERIENCE TO UNDERSTAND IT "

How do any of these fields tackle the problem of proving the effectiveness of prayer?

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Woodcarver

You can't take physical measurements of spiritual things - you can only measure their effect.

You subscribe to old school materialism - that is a dead science.

I agree.

If humanity knew what they where doing then they would create science/technology where they can read the quantum state of a being in real time in 3D/T maybe even with the entanglement connections registered. Then you can use multiple test subjects and examine what their brains sense on different levels and under different energetic manipulation. With this you can even get around the objective->subjective information degradation from raw quantum data to encoded subjective perception depending on how the body is structured including the brain.

According to this 5% of people experience OOB.


I have not had a OOB in this life that I have registered. I have done other things and understand why there are Buddhist monks that spend their whole life understanding energetic body states and meditation.

a reply to: Woodcarver

"God knows everything except for what I want, so I have to say a prayer in my head so he can hear me".
Even if the traditional Christian view of God is 100% accurate, prayer is useless. If God knows everything, then he knows what your hopes and fears are. He will know that you feel bad about poor Aunt Jenny dying of cancer. Telling him so won't change anything.
What prayer really is though is people who feel a subconscious desire to be looked out for or watched over. I don't believe in any particular religion or deity, and yet there was a time recently when I prayed to anything that could hear me to make the pain I had at that particular moment go away. I didn't believe the prayer would actually be heard by any deity. It wasn't about belief, but rather the result of a natural psychological reaction to feeling powerless. Hindus pray to their gods, Muslims pray to theirs, Christians to theirs, etc etc. People prayed to their concept of higher beings long before religion even existed.
Prayer is simply psychological and actually has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or God.

a reply to: Woodcarver

wow, just wow..

Why does CBT work?

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Woodcarver

I hope you don't mind me replying in a completely unscientific way.

And this is all maybes.

I think that there is something to this reality that is beyond the physical. I don't think at this point in time that this entity is even measurable by science. It will not be proven or disproved by science.

Still all in a context of maybe....

There is something in this reality that is not observable by our scientific instruments, but it is there. Everyone has experienced it on a subconscious level and a few are able to experience it on a conscious level. No one talks about it and for some reason it appears to be taboo. It is something of the spirit or something of the soul.

How would it be proven and also escape the use of science to do so? This is more woo and really baffles the mind.

However, you are simply making assumptions again and offering nothing of substance. Why would Offer more maybes when we should be looking for difinitives? If anything is to be proven, it will be done with science. That is inescapable.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Woodcarver

You can't take physical measurements of spiritual things - you can only measure their effect.

You subscribe to old school materialism - that is a dead science.

I agree.

If humanity knew what they where doing then they would create science/technology where they can read the quantum state of a being in real time in 3D/T maybe even with the entanglement connections registered. Then you can use multiple test subjects and examine what their brains sense on different levels and under different energetic manipulation. With this you can even get around the objective->subjective information degradation from raw quantum data to encoded subjective perception depending on how the body is structured including the brain.

According to this 5% of people experience OOB.

I have not had a OOB in this life that I have registered. I have done other things and understand why there are Buddhist monks that spend their whole life understanding energetic body states and meditation.

Again, you are making assertions about quantum physics, and i bet you hold no degrees in any field of science. Perhaps it is your lack of knowledge which allows you to believe in such things.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Ill try something;"

A man lost his wife in a car accident, and his two kids were in critical condition. He was a proud man, never in his life he thought about going to church. But sitting in the emergency room, he saw a small chapel. He went inside and prayed, yet he never prayed before.

He prayed for hours, and every time he heard a signal go by, he feared the worst. The doctor came out after the surgery, one of his kids had died. The fear he felt, made him scream in pain. He wasnt gonna lose his other child.

So he went back to the chapel, and prayed even harder. It made him collect all his senses. And the doctor came out, and said;" Your child will live "

I made a f# parable so your narrow minded head can grasp the true nature with a f# movie script.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Woodcarver

wow, just wow..

Why does CBT work?

What are you reffering to as CBT?

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Woodcarver

Ill try something;"

A man lost his wife in a car accident, and his two kids were in critical condition. He was a proud man, never in his life he thought about going to church. But sitting in the emergency room, he saw a small chapel. He went inside and prayed, yet he never prayed before.

He prayed for hours, and every time he heard a signal go by, he feared the worst. The doctor came out after the surgery, one of his kids had died. The fear he felt, made him scream in pain. He wasnt gonna lose his other child.

So he went back to the chapel, and prayed even harder. It made him collect all his senses. And the doctor came out, and said;" Your child will live "

I made a f# parable so your narrow minded head can grasp the true nature with a f# movie script.

Uhhmmm... why are you resorting to anger and name calling? I would assume that the doctors saved the one child because it was within their means. If prayer is so effective, why did the first child die? If prayer is so effective, why not just take the damaged children to a church instead of the hospital?

a reply to: trollz

Beautiful.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: Woodcarver

Prayer is on one level sending out information on telepathic/entangled channels that can be intercepted both inside the body and outside. Fortunately the effect is set on lower scales than it could have been so that people are not hurting themselves with lack of control.

Can you cite your scientifically supported studies of these claims? This sounds like woo and i do not know anyone who would corroborate these claims. If these are just your opinions, you should say so.

It is not opinion but a person have to do some homework to know why it is not opinion.

www.quantumconsciousness.org...


How Quantum Biology Might Explain Life’s Biggest Questions | Jim Al-Khalili | TED Talks


en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: trollz
a reply to: Woodcarver

"God knows everything except for what I want, so I have to say a prayer in my head so he can hear me".
Even if the traditional Christian view of God is 100% accurate, prayer is useless. If God knows everything, then he knows what your hopes and fears are. He will know that you feel bad about poor Aunt Jenny dying of cancer. Telling him so won't change anything.
What prayer really is though is people who feel a subconscious desire to be looked out for or watched over. I don't believe in any particular religion or deity, and yet there was a time recently when I prayed to anything that could hear me to make the pain I had at that particular moment go away. I didn't believe the prayer would actually be heard by any deity. It wasn't about belief, but rather the result of a natural psychological reaction to feeling powerless. Hindus pray to their gods, Muslims pray to theirs, Christians to theirs, etc etc. People prayed to their concept of higher beings long before religion even existed.
Prayer is simply psychological and actually has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or God.

I couldn't agree more. Prayer is placebo.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

If I do hold a degree in a science or not does neither increase or decrease if what I state is true or not.