There's no mental illness

originally posted by: Quauhtli
a reply to: Indrasweb


The complicated array of paths, choices and so on puts us in a position as a group where a very high percentage of our community is lost to confusion. Each one of us individually has to deal with the mess.. those who choose to simplify their lives and deal with the not so "right" choices and move on with them are more likely to safe guard themselves from becoming mentally ill.. But we've all experienced some form of it, it's in all of us.

The real issue here is that we tend to treat illness in most of its forms by dealing directly with the symptoms. Most cases of mental illness can only truly be remedied by behaviour management and changes in our perception of our environment.

A very insightful post i think.

I will certainly be exploring the relationship of complexity, simplicity, the perception of both, and the subsequent impact on mental wellbeing in a thread in the near future.

The last part i think is critical also, so much so I'll quote it again :p

"we tend to treat illness in most of its forms by dealing directly with the symptoms."

Medication is absolutely, and in some cases profoundly, effective in managing symptoms of mental ill health. I have personally witnessed many many people regain control of their lives and, most importantly, experience a dramatic improvement in their quality of life, thanks to medication (I have also seen the other side of medication as outlined above by TarzanBeta and fully comprehend the horrendous impact of negative drug effects so please don't think that i am 100% behind all drugs all the time!). It can be effective in helping people to reduce their symptoms to a manageable level and, in some cases, eradicate them completely (though temporarily).

HOWEVER! No medication that i have ever come across has "cured" a mental illness. In fact, we don't as a service tend to speak in terms of "curing" but rather in terms of "recovery"; understanding that for an individual, treatment and management of mental illness is an ongoing process.

To quote you again:

"Most cases of mental illness can only truly be remedied by behaviour management and changes in our perception of our environment."

And THIS is currently the big failure in mental health services in my opinion. Talking therapies are time consuming, resource intensive, expensive and, as a result, very difficult to access. In my locale there have previously been (not sure what it is currently I'd have to check) 18 month waiting lists for psychology and psychotherapy. That HAS to change. A combination of medication, psychology/psychotherapy is proven to be the most effective treatment by far and leads to the best prognosis, and i feel this MUST be made more widely available. Until then, many people will find themselves stuck in a system that can help them to a point but one which they can never fully be free from.

a reply to: supermilkman

Ok, you are absolutely correct that the overwhelming majority of people with mental health problems are not a danger to society. Many of them are also not a danger to themselves, that we can agree on.
I also concur with your statement that there are significant cultural influences on what is perceived as normal and abnormal. No one who works in mental health would classify service users as "bad", that kind of attitude is simply incompatible with the role of a mental health professional.

Where we can agree just about ends there however.

I will respond simply with this:

I wrote my initial reply during my lunch break at the facility i currently work at. As i left the room where i was eating/writing i met one of the ladies who is currently staying here (voluntarily i might add).
She was sobbing uncontrollably and said to me "i can't go on like this, why do i feel like this, why was o born like this, I've struggled with this ALL my life... I just want to be ok... I am SO tired, just worn out, yet when i lie down i just can't rest, it's like i'm in hell"

So, do you think that she doesn't need help? Do you think she'd be just fine if everyone just left her alone? Do you think there's no such thing as mental illness for her?

I have had many people come and tell me to my face that, without my interventions they would be dead now. I'm not saying that to blow my own trumpet, i don't do my job for pats on the back (in truth i'm much more likely to get spat on or assaulted) but i mention it to try and illustrate to you that the suffering for those with mental health problems is very real indeed.

a reply to: supermilkman

Well that's a simplistic perspective but I take your point. There are a few issues compounding the situation; the primary one being reimbursement. Mental health is the most poorly compensated modality in healthcare while healthcare itself is poorly compensated overall. I know, I know. Nobody likes to hear that but it's true.

Also, talk therapy or even a cognitive behavioral approach are too time consuming for most Insurance companies to have patience with. They want a provider to spend an hour with a client, punch in a diagnosis and give them a pill. There is an insidious collusion with Big Parma that is very harmful.

Finally, the best money in mental health is in frankly exploiting the worried well. There really isn't that much wrong with them but they have enough free time that their mind is throwing up sparks and they have been taught that everything should be perfect and they should always be happy, and if they aren't, then they are failing, and they worry more, and around and around they go. Good steady income in pushing the neurotic just enough to think that they need to see you every week, especially if they can afford to pay you out of pocket so you don't have to play the insurance/Medicaid/medical coding game.

Full disclosure, BS in psychology and personally disheartened by the industry, so I have a big ol' dog in this hunt.

a reply to: Indrasweb

I haven't met anyone yet that I felt was qualified to talk to me about me. I end up finding their faults before they find mine.

What's your opinion on that friend?

Decent post, the previous, by the way. I just haven't met a person who has been helped with medication. I wonder what that looks like?

I went in to get checked, against my better judgment, because I thought I was having a stroke. I had all the symptoms, randomly. Turned out, it wasn't at all, or they missed it by a mile.

I've dislocated my ankle and reset it myself, and I've cracked my neck and saw colors and swirls, had cold sweats and extreme trepidation, inability to move freely, and still refused to go to the doctor - just suffered for days and then years. I'm neither a hypochondriac, nor someone who likes medical attention. So when I went for help and they told me it was purely mental, that definitely made little sense to me.

Begged them to scan my head. They told me I was perfectly fine, no need, go talk to someone.

I talked with multiple counselors. Idiots, the lot of them. Just being Frank. Better than George, anyway.

They convinced me to commit myself.

If course, they put me on Adavan and Prozac, except I didn't know it or remember it. My wife had to tell me when I found an empty bottle with what I thought was my dad's name on it. She was right there when I asked myself how I ended up with some of his medication, and when did he get on Prozac, anyway? She started crying and said, "Really?! That's yours! You really don't remember?"

No way.

So I commit myself and they keep me on that and also Depekote? I think it's called. Horse pills I call them. That and Klonopin.

What a literal hell. Somehow I still managed to out smart the head doctor concerning holding me against my will. Read and broke down the papers I signed. He threatened my wife that if I kept this up, she would never see me again.

So, I raised hell. I turned everyone against them, made sure "What About Bob" was the movie we watched every night, and played chess against a resident loony chess master until he praised me for being so smart that he wanted to live again, so he proceeded to demand his way out when he had previously wanted to die there.

Got another guy to promote me playing an acoustic set for the hospital.

I remember my plans and actions, but I don't remember how a single one really unfolded. And I don't remember the next 2 months at all except for glimpses of my betrayal against my wife.

I did and said things and used people in ways I've never even entertained before. My wife was lucid, she knows.

No one I talked with got me. Not once. No one listens. I found the professionals, before, during, and after to be totally lacking in any sense of knowing.

The doctors ADMITTED to my wife that they were experimenting on me because they didn't know what was wrong with me.

I tried to tell them... Maybe I'm just right and maybe you're simply wrong? Have you considered that possibility?

Then why the random stroke symptoms?

Being surrounded by and dictated to by a society of people who profit and survive on the dog-eat-dog mentality, being crushed from all sides when no one will listen, being called crazy for speaking the truth, and for all of them to manipulate my wife against me, for a short, but difficult time...

That might be stressful enough. To entertain the possibility, against all better judgment... "What if I really am crazy? What if my perception is so skewed that everything I see and hear is just an illusion?". But then to have these questions ruminating in my spirit, in my subconscious, for years...

It would be nice to meet someone, a counselor even, it doesn't matter, who could actually comprehend my speech. Nothing I've said here, by the way. It goes way beyond what appears to be merely distress in this post. It goes beyond this topic and transverses all matters.

a reply to: redhorse

Yeah, I have lots of bills racked up. Looking at them sends me reeling. I'm not a lawsuit kind of person, I'm a personal responsibility kind of guy. But darn do those bills offend me.

my mental health team, GP and various doctors over the years who have looked after me when I was hospitalised for Psychosis bought on by severe depression and Schizophernia. Thanks for letting me know that they were all wrong.

What an ignorant thread

a reply to: supermilkman

a reply to: supermilkman

a couple of problems with this. One, the over diagnosis of psychosis does not negate that some psychoses DO exist.

Two, anyone who has objectively studied the rate of abuse as a child in homosexuals should understand that much of homosexuality IS mental disorder brought on by trauma as a child, sometimes physical, sometimes sexual.

That is not to say that all homosexuality is brought on by mental disorder and/or that there is not a physical or hormonal aspect to some homosexuality, but to carte blanche state that homosexuality in all cases and forms should just be accepted by society is disingenuous or self deception at best and potentially conspiratorial at worst.

Jaden

originally posted by: supermilkman
To live is to suffer.

That is me cured from depression, i wish i had found you years ago.
You are an awesome person with a lot of information about the human brain

originally posted by: Redback

originally posted by: supermilkman
To live is to suffer.

That is me cured from depression, i wish i had found you years ago.
You are an awesome person with a lot of information about the human brain

I cannot agree with the milk man because I know people who don't suffer.

If I didn't know better, though, I would tend to agree with his statement based on personal experience alone.

I have a hope that my latter half will be the reward for my first half though - my life, that is.

Eta - the people I know that don't suffer are extremely average, normal intelligence people who think that not having a warm meal everyday is abuse and arguing about from which end to squeeze the toothpaste tube is a stressful event; replacing an electronic window motor in a vehicle makes you a miracle mechanic, reformatting and partitioning a harddrive is genius, replacing a sink is skilled, construction is so manly and back breaking, photography is so creative, writing songs and singing is reserved for the lotto winners or social losers, men are beasts of burden and women gossip for fun...

I'm praised for doing everything to benefit them and crushed for doing things they deem foolish.

They think that is suffering... For them! But they profit from my ability to fix anything, to even invent for them, to provide any service imaginable.

But if I start singing, ooh yes, that's great, beautiful, but get a job.

I own a cleaning business and I make $20 to $45 an hour... But get a real job, please. Cleaning is for people who are lesser creatures.

This seems incoherent. It's just very incomplete.

Those people don't know suffering, so milk man is wrong on that, for sure. They are so happy that they have time to make me their hobby.

Told them all once before - I'm gonna start selling my super fans T-shirts if they don't get a new hobby.

a reply to: supermilkman

People behave based on the experiences they have had and not every person experiences the same thing.
If people are EXPECTED to behave based on experiences they didn't have then that is unfair and judgemental.

Walk a mile in a man's shoes first right?

However,mental illnesses are VERY real and if you have never experienced seeing someone not of their right mind,I doubt I can convince you otherwise.

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: dreamingawake



Psychiatric medicine has no value. In fact many of them are narcotics and have been found to be pharmacologically related to opiates and even mescaline.

That's very interesting..do you happen to have more information about this, which medication (respirdal, prozac, etc..),

It would be neat to learn a bit more about it all.. and certainly about the side effects of the opiates and mescaline;
nice thread..

a reply to: Masterjaden

I didn't become homosexual, but I found recourse in promiscuity, or so I thought. Indeed.

a reply to: Indrasweb

could it be paranormal in origin, or might this lady be targeted? It's true that no one believes you once you start talking about negative spirits or demonic forces..and if you start talking about the gov and their satellite terrorism, suddenly you are labeled a. or b. or c. Mind if I ask what this lady is suffering from?

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Hi TarzanBeta,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

So i guess there's a couple of points of interest here, I'll do my best to answer

First to your question regards you feeling that you've not met anyone qualified to tell you about you.
Haha.. That made me chuckle because I've heard that said so many times! And you're absolutely right of course! No one is more qualified to speak about you than you are. So as to what i think about that; i think you're totally bang on


Oh, and i would just add that i didn't mention my qualifications in order to try and suggest some kind of superiority or confer some kind of 'expert status' upon myself, i simply mentioned it so it was clear where i was speaking from. I hope it didn't come across as arrogance (or worse, grandiose! They'll be locking me up next!).

I'm afraid i have no experience of the mental health system there in the states (all i know is that i find it appalling that you have to pay huge sums of money for treatment) but the philosophy of mental health services in the UK, and certainly in the trust i work within (it's written right there on the wall) is client front and centre, service user led, the client is the expert.

In relation to what you shared about your experiences; i would say that none of what you're describing is an issue UNLESS it has a significant impact on the way you live your life. Often those suffering with mood disorders, or more specifically bipolar disorder, are highly creative, motivated individuals capable of great things. The problem comes when their 'manic episodes' lead to self-destructice behaviour. It can lead to people getting in huge amounts of debt, aggression, violence, sexually disinhibited behaviour (leading to physical health problems, marital/relationship issues, unwanted pregnancy etc) and a whole host of other serious negative consequences for the individual (and often their loved ones). Believing that you're superhuman for example is not in and of itself, harmful, but if that leads to you jumping from a bridge or walking into traffic because you're sure you can't be hurt then there's a problem.
Personally i do take the view that we are too quick to intervene at times and, once you're 'in the system' everything you do is seen through the lens of "this person is mentally ill", which can be incredibly harmful and so can appreciate that many people struggle to have a positive relationship with services.

I fully appreciate also that being "experimented on" is horrific. As mental illness is so diverse and so specific to the individual then there is always an element of trial and error in terms of arriving at an effective treatment. That in no way detracts from the suffering that people endure as a result and it is a sad thing indeed when people are made to suffer whilst doctors mess around with different treatment plans.

As for what someone who's helped by medication looks like; well... like most other people who are either on, or not on medication, that is to say; simply looking at a person won't tell you a great deal. I can however provide an example (well, many but I'll stick to just one for now)

In 2005 i worked at an acute inpatient ward for adults with severe mental health problems. A young man of 18 was admitted to the ward suffering from horrendous paranoia. He believed that a group of people who he went to school with (that he'd had no contact with for two years) were going to torture his mother for 'reasons unknown'. He was incredibly distressed by these thoughts and became convinced that they would do this as a way of getting to him. Unfortunately he was able to gain access to a glass jar (a serious failure on the part of the institution in question), smashed it and cut his own throat, all the way down to the windpipe in an attempt to save his mother. I was just in time to see this take place and the resulting bloodbath is something that i will never forget. The young man very nearly died right there. Fortunately we were able to administer emergency treatment and he survived the incident. Following this episode he was placed on a variety of medications (or experimented on if you prefer), which did cause him some very unpleasant side effects. His medications were changed numerous times but eventually they found a combination that worked for him. Twelve years on and the young man is now living happily, independently, he works, has had relationships, has friends and leads a fairly normal life (I know this as i still see him from time to time). He has stopped taking his medication a couple of times in the intervening years and has rapidly relapsed as a result. He now takes them religiously (at no financial cost i might add) and will happily declare that the medication is enabling him to lead a 'normal' life. So i guess that's what it looks like.

His is far from an isolated example, i have witnessed many over the years. I have also witnessed those for whom medication has done nothing, and worse, actually harmed them further so, as i said before, i am in NO WAY suggesting that medication is the answer for everyone, only that it can work and it can work wonderfully. Though "your mileage may vary" as they say.

I'd also like to say that anyone reading this that is experiencing anything like the kinds of thoughts i have described here, please please PLEASE speak to someone about it, don't try to deal with it alone. Even if you don't feel able to speak to a doctor then please at least speak to someone like a friend or family member. Barring that, here in the UK you can contact NHS direct or the Samaritans or MIND (a mental health charity). There ARE people who will listen, i know because im one of them

Finally, thank you for your input Tarzan, i hope you're well and that life is good for you

a reply to: TarzanBeta

This is what masterJaden wrote:

"but to carte blanche state that homosexuality in all cases and forms should just be accepted by society is disingenuous or self deception at best and potentially conspiratorial at worst. "

Jaden


To this I would respond that homosexuality was very common and perfectly accepted in society and perfectly normal during Antiquity etc in the Greco Roman Empires.. Also very important and very influential artists, painters, and musicians were homosexual..

In Sweden and other Scandinavian countries it is actually entirely "carte blanched" and there is no problem with it..on the contrary; attitudes and perspectives sort of depend on where people are from and how they are raised; if you're from the bible belt usa area, you might have more trouble with accepting homosexual neighbors..

"Homosexuality" is actually a construction based on time space and location..

a reply to: tony9802

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the question

Wow, well, they are some BIG questions!

Could it be paranormal in origin:

Well, full disclosure, i am not personally convinced that there IS such a thing, though i'm not convinced there isn't either so, I guess you can say i'm agnostic on the matter.
So, with that being said, i couldn't definitively say that it's NOT paranormal in origin, only that the lady in question does not believe it to be and i have seen no evidence to suggest that it is.

It's true that nobody believes you when you start talking about negative spirits:

I operate on the basis that if a person truly believes that something is true then it may as well be so. For example, if a person believes that he is being followed then he will behave just as if someone IS following him, therefore, that person's experience (thoughts, behaviour etc) is indistinguishable from one who actually is being followed if you see what i mean. In order to determine whether this is a reality or a delusion one would have to objectively examine the evidence for and against the belief, taking into account any other relevant information (possibly other unusual claims, behaviours thoughts etc) and that is all part of the assessment process. In terms of whether treatment is thought to be necessary; that would depend largely on what impact the belief was having on the person's quality of life. Minimal impact; no problem, severe difficulty functioning; treatment may be indicated.

In regards to what the lady is suffering from; it would appear to be major depressive disorder with psychotic features.

Hope that answers your questions

a reply to: Indrasweb

Good response.

My life is affected greatly, but I tend to think it has quite a bit more to do with my obstacles with people and my unwillingness to remove the obstacles because of how close they are. I did most of the "revenge" on medication. Before that, I simply managed.

The story is TL;DR style.

But I'm not doing well because I'm constantly considered strange and wrong. I protected myself by thinking I don't give a darn what they think, but frankly, I don't like convincing myself to not care about people either.

All that I'm saying seems over simplified here.

Never mind.

Eta forgot to mention that I'm not bipolar. I'm afraid to use the term, but I feel gaslighted by the people around me. If that makes sense.

But the proof resides in the fact that the medication sent be into extreme chaos like I've never experienced.

I knew I wasn't. Shoot, they admitted they diagnosed me without talking to me so they could expedite the meds to see what happened.

I said, "You are Guessing?!"

"Well... Yes. It's the most common, why not?"

Like I said earlier, my wife mentioned Low Latent Inhibition. Know anything about that that I couldn't learn from my cursory research? I'm inclined to believe that is also junk because it seems to me a bunch of people who want to justify their perceived level of intelligence even more that are pushing the term.

To simplify my mental state, I am annoyed that others don't think or consider, I am annoyed that I am responsible for everyone's actions and they are not, and I'm really bored with sticking to a routine or a topic, unless I'm drinking lots of beer - in which case, I tend to feel normal. I don't drink hard stuff and I never get drunk. I haven't drank in two nights and I have no withdrawal, just massive amounts of mental energy exploding like a universe of active fireworks in every direction, which causes me to bounce from one thing to another before the insanity grips me. Depression or agitation only arises when I am interrupted. I accomplish anything and everything if people would just get out of my way.

I do not have moments when that's not true unless I'm drinking a beer every hour and smoking cigarettes incessantly.

Which is, obviously, unhealthy. But it doesn't feel like it, at all.

Anxiety arises if there is no mission or an interruption in the mission which could only be ameliorated by removing people whom I should not remove, or things which I should not remove. Since I cannot treat people as less than me, then find myself between the Egyptian army and the Red Sea with nary a Moses to be found, but on rare occasions.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Well, for what it's worth, that makes a lot of sense to me. I alluded to it previously; that how we view ourselves, and how others view/treat us, has an enormous effect on our wellbeing, whether you're 'ill' or not. And i absolutely get what you're saying about not wanting to convince yourself you don't care as well. It sounds like a major 'catch 22': you can't afford to care what people think because it's damaging to you and you can't afford to convince yourself you don't care because that's losing some of who you are. I feel for you man, as i said, for what it's worth. I hope things get better for you

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: cavtrooper7

Well those psychiatrists are making people worse with their medicine. There is NO benefit from psychiatric medicine.

This I agree with. When I was younger I was being worn down with very bad anxiety and started having panic attacks. At the time I was very ignorant so I sought out help.

I have taken many different SSRIs, SNRIs, SARIs, benzodiazepines, mood stabilizers ect.........

All of which greatly exacerbated my symptoms, and created new more severe symptoms. Things like multiple day manic episodes with zero sleep, severe debilitating anxiety, hallucinations, ect.......

What an awful chapter of life it was....

Eventually I gained knowledge of what I was dealing with, I tapered off all medications and started dealing with my issues naturally.

I have extensive and intimate life experience with this subject. It really sucked at the time, but today I feel stronger having lived it.

originally posted by: Indrasweb
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Well, for what it's worth, that makes a lot of sense to me. I alluded to it previously; that how we view ourselves, and how others view/treat us, has an enormous effect on our wellbeing, whether you're 'ill' or not. And i absolutely get what you're saying about not wanting to convince yourself you don't care as well. It sounds like a major 'catch 22': you can't afford to care what people think because it's damaging to you and you can't afford to convince yourself you don't care because that's losing some of who you are. I feel for you man, as i said, for what it's worth. I hope things get better for you

Thanks. I added to my post and forgot I was adding for a moment instead of creating a new one, see above. I have a negative feeling about discussing for some reason.