Is there a dumbing down of music

a reply to: PilgriMage

Most dubstep is annoying.

All the dj does is take samples from other music and mix and match a bunch of sound effects. It's not that complicated.

The first dubstep song I ever heard was called Nights in White Satin by Zed's Dead and at first I thought it was amazing. I was in a dubstep phase at one point. Of course this was during my partying years.

Comparing that to the original is an insult though. The original Nights in White Satin is great. Now I think Zed's Dead remix is a bastardization.

originally posted by: mast3rshake2049
To OP. its not that i fundamentally disagree with you, im telling you flat out, you are wrong. i say this as a composer and producer. all art is subject to the eye (or ear in this case) of the beholder. your argument is, well i like one thing and everything else that isnt that is garbage. art is anything that was artificially created to provoke an involuntary emotional response.

skrillex to many millions provokes an extreme emotional response in that it gets the adrenaline flowing and the blood pumping. in the same way that a furious orchestral piece might do the same. your argument is based entirely on personal preference. but what really proves that you dont know what your talking about is when you say that modern artists depend on computer sound effects. sound effects are just that, effects.

Yes, and some people puke on canvasses and consider that art.

Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right?

Actually, no, if something looks/sounds pleasant people will agree that it looks/sounds pleasant. If it doesn't then it will just annoy others.

Go ahead, plug in a guitar to an amp. Turn on all the sound effects. Create a bunch of feed back and noisy squeels. YOU might think it's art but to the listener it's annoying.

The second you start playing music that follows music theory and composition THEN it will sound pleasant.

edit: I can't play the videos. I'll try to listen later.

a reply to: supermilkman

Funny.. my pc is messed up right now to the point where I can't view video's but I can hear them.

You need some good music, the crap you've been listening to has warped your brain, which is why you're questioning it. If it sounds like crap, it's definately crap.

Instead of complaining about crap, stop listening to it. End of problem.

originally posted by: TroliusMaximus
There is systematic "dumbing-down" of all facets of society, and it has been underway for decades:

Totally agree. This dumbing down is to keep people away from being enlightened or self-regulating. It's easier to control dumbed down people than people that can actually critically think. If one did they would eventually question the status quo.

The second people become "aware" they would probably pose a threat to what's going on around them.

Keep the masses placated, misinformed, and divided and you maintain your system of control.

Also figured out that television is giving people short term memory. TV advertisements are ran between 30 seconds to 2 minutes which reinforces the viewer to have 30 second to 2 minute attention spans.

There is also good reason to believe that tv's emit sound waves which puts the brain into an alpha state instead of the normal beta state. Alpha brainwave states makes people more receptive and suggestible to information.

Video games give people a false sense of psychological validation. Of course the gamer can't be a General in a real life military but in a game the user is given a constant "patting on the back" and rewarded points and gear. The player is living through an alter-ego fantasy world rather than acquiring real-life skills.

Your celebrity musicians often are not writing their own music. They have ghost writers. They are the face to a brand which will sell more products to the consumer. You can't sell name brand perfume if the celebrity musician you're endorsing isn't a 10/10 on the beauty skill. You're truly talented musicians probably aren't attractive but can play far more dynamic music.

Reading books goes back to the 30 second - 2 minute attention span. People seek IMMEDIATE gratification. If they don't find any gratification within the first 30 seconds to 2 minutes they will give up on whatever task they are doing. Good luck finding anyone reading a book from cover to cover. At the most they will scan through the table of contents. Others won't even TOUCH a book.

There are good films from time to time but they're mostly formulaic. The biggest sellers tend to be action/adventure movies with cliche monomyth story-telling. Behind your action/adventure movies is the comedies, drama, thrillers, etc. There are SOME good movies out there but overall the most popular films are about guns and violence. The viewer is than indoctrinated some phony hero-ethos and more misinformation. Movies are so forumulaic that if you've seen one you've seen them all.

News is often misinformation, both mainstream and alternative news.

Language is man-made but I believe in the future there will be a global common language that sounds similar to the German language (Yuerish mei lou forya byuak?)

Overall yes, there is a severe lack of discipline. There is always going to be this lack of discipline if other less disciplined people are always paraded and exalted despite actually having no skill.

People mimic behavior that is seen as successful and most popular therefore those that are put on a pedestal will be emulated, including their bad qualities.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I think it is forgotten by many but BAD music exists during all time eras. We only remember the good stuff. But for how much the OP is waxing poetic about classical music, there is JUST as much crap from the Baroque and Classical periods as there is today.

Of course bad music has always exist. The thing is bad music wasn't popular, it was squashed.

Nowadays you have garbage being put on the radio waves.

I thought you flush feces down a toilet, not put it on a platter?

originally posted by: StarSirius
Very interesting point.

As a musician myself I must say that in my opinion music has changed dramatically over the years and at a tremendous rate - not to mention the technology that is now available to the artist.

Personally I don't use MIDI (well, not much) but I do appreciate it and it certainly has its place. Audio is my preferred choice but as mentioned above it would be a little more difficult in a real time situation, and MIDI is easier to quantise etc...

Recording is becoming more user friendly too meaning that its more affable to the end user meaning more potential artists/artists are using them.

Yes, even music production is being dumbed down. Just about anyone can get a computer program and MIDI controller to make music. They're not bad per se but people are just using samples from pre-existing music and making songs.

Many are using computer programs that transposes pre-existing music into electronic music. All they have to do now is feed sheet music into the program and it will automatically transcribe everything.

As a guitarist I still think many other guitarists are overrated. I know for a fact that if you get an effects pedal it transforms many mediocre-sounding music to awe-inspiring.

Get rid of the distortions, modulation, delays etc and suddenly your metal heads chugging on the E string aren't so impressive.

originally posted by: Maroboduus
a reply to: supermilkman

Your comment about "moral degradation" in music is nonsensical, if not downright stupid.
Your blanket generalization that "chaotic" music is somehow inferior, and shouldn't be considered pleasant... So only things that you like constitute real music? There are supremely talented musicians who make exceedingly chaotic music. Theread are many who play with the very concept of what should be considered music. There are whole genres of music called "noise" music. Some of the most inegligent people I know listen to such things. Your personal taste doesn't define what should and should not be considered music, or what should be considered music in the first place. That is a truly ignorant and conceited opinion. Classical music is no more or less valid than other forms of music. Music evolves. Tastes change and evolve. To equate that to a "dumbing down" is legitimately foolish.

All I know is this, the more "tribal" sounding music makes people violent.

I say dumbing down happens when music strays away from sophistication. There is still good music being made but there is also a lot of bad music that is not only unpleasant to listen too but is also corrupting the youth and turning them into thugs.

I don't like people driving up and down the neighborhood blaring music about shooting people. I also don't like their punk, snobbish attitudes. Half of them that have a chip on their shoulder have no right.

I think that every generation complains about the music of the under generation. We all enjoy a lot of the music we loved in our teams viz the afghans (coats) at the last Yes concert!

originally posted by: Maroboduus

originally posted by: supermilkman

That's not really talented.

They also come off devilish.

If they aren't talented, then I would love to see you write and perform a heavy metal song. I mean, it should be super easy, since it doesn't require any talent, right?
And that comment about them coming off "devillish" is embarrassingly naive and quaint.

I can shred. I used to do covers to just about any band you could think of. Ozzy, Deep Purple, Metallica, Pink Floyd, Ted Nugent, Judas Priest, Motley Crue, Alice in Chains, A Flock of Seagulls, Def Leppard, Van Halen, Whitesnake, POD, 3 Doors Down, and more. People used to call me Zakk Wylde, Eddie Van Halen etc.

I think that most metal musicians rely mostly on sound effects. There is still good music out there, but a lot of it is just clever sound engineering.

And what I mean by devilish is that they come off as dark and sinister.

originally posted by: Aristotelian1
a reply to: supermilkman
I don't know. Is this less intelligent?
m.youtube.com...

That kind of music turns people into criminals. The message is bad.

And obviously the music is less intelligent. It was nothing but a drum loop and some piano notes.

I still think that music that strays away from classical order is less sophisticated.

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: supermilkman

Music may seem to not conform because artists wish to try and create something new and different. The more and more new artists come about, the more they try to push what may have not been done yet. Also music creation is becoming much easier to achieve now with software and synths, so overall music is being created on mass instead of only a few artists bringing out music once in a while.

Well if anyone aspires to be a musician they should learn the classics first.

Even Randy Rhoads understood classical order

I'm way more concerned with the dumbing down of musicians.

It does seem to be an issue...

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: supermilkman

Now you show your idiocy yet again...stick to songs about buildings & food

No, I said from the beginning of the post that music that deviates from classical order is less sophisticated.

I'd have a battle of wits with you but I see that you're unarmed.

Also realizing you don't have the best taste in music. Talking Heads video was trash.

originally posted by: Maroboduus
Don't be foolish. You're painting entire artforms and industries with a single broad brush, which is something that only a fool would do. There are still amazing movies, music, games, etc being produced. Just because you are ignorant of them doesn't mean that they don't exist
And your arbitrary standard of a video game needing to rely upon fast twitch reflexes in order to be good is.... well, dumb.

Classical order. Period.

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: mast3rshake2049

To quote Mike Muir from Suicidal Tendencies.. "Just cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good"

A lot of people are stoned which is why they think certain music sounds good.

Sober up and you'd realize you only thought it was good was because you were high.

Your critique is strikingly similar to critics of Mozart in the late 1700s:

The famous complaint of Emperor Joseph II about The Marriage of Figaro - "too many notes, Mozart"

How about critics of Bach:

1737, by one-time Bach pupil JA Scheibe: "[Bach] would be the admiration of whole nations if he had more amiability, if he did not take away the natural element in his pieces by giving them a turgid and confused style, and if he did not darken their beauty by an excess of art."

The emperor was not a musician, he was just an emperor. Also according to wiki he appreciated Mozart's music.

Beales shows that Joseph genuinely appreciated Mozart’s music and greatly admired his operas. - wiki

Classical musicians from the age of enlightenement were ENLIGHTENED. If you were enlightened you'd know many fields and subject matter, including musicianship. Even if others did criticize them their opinion is invalid since they're not musicians themselves.

As for the 'moral decay' bit:

An Associated Press article reported that on Sunday, December 2, 1956, The Rev. Carl Elgena told his Des Moines, Iowa, congregation that “Elvis Presley is morally insane” and “by his actions he’s leading other young people to the same end.” He warned the over 800 members in the pews of the Grand View Park Baptist Church that “the belief of unholy pleasure has sent the morals of our nation down to rock bottom and the crowning addition to this day’s corruption is Elvis Presleyism.” Holding up magazine pictures and articles depicting some of the singer’s alleged actions, the minister declared, “When I was a boy, if a person had done things like this, he would have found himself in jail.”

I wonder what people have said about the music you like to listen to?

It's called entropy.

At one point Elvis and his dancing was considered suggestive. Nowadays you see more and more people wearing revealing clothing (including young kids.)

Eventually you'll see prostitution and escorts on television. In fact a lot of the content in the media is already inappropriate.

The moral decay has been going on for decades. Every religion states that people will progressively lose more of their moral compass until reaching an all-time low.

Its de-evolution.

originally posted by: Maroboduus

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: supermilkman

I also find this more interesting compared to most of your metal music.

It's overwhelmingly obvious that you are completely ignorant of huge swathes of metal music. You're using idiotic blanket generalizations again. Not all metal is the same, or even remotely close. There are bands like Swans, Khanate, etc., that bear no resemblance whatsoever to what you foolishly believe to represent all heavy metal as a whole. But your ignorance hasn't stopped you from spouting foolishness thus far, so I'm sure that doesn't actually matter to you.
And your repeated comments about computer editing and sound effects are amazingly foolish and ignorant. They are tools to make music, just like any other instrument. If you actually follow through with your completely juvenile logic, all instruments would be unsophisticated. Guitars are a tool to make sounds. There are various ways to change the sound. So those must be unsophisticated, because the sounds are produced artificially. Same with amplifiers, and pianos, and so on and so on and so on. There is no difference, aside from your completely arbitrary standards, which bear no weight and are supported by zero logic.

I listened to a few songs by Khanate and Swan. Pure garbage.

Yeah, it's not that hard to play de-tuned guitars with a bunch of distortion. Almost every beginner guitar player does that: nothing but palm-muting and power chords. Weak.

Next!

Music is intensely personal.
What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.
I like Wagner, lots of people don't.

As for rock (and by extension, all folk/blues derived music) being somehow dumb. That misses the point entirely.
There can be every bit of brilliance in composing a simple, meaningful tune for a couple of instruments and one voice as there can be for a whole symphony orchestra and huge chorus.


Just by way of illustration, I leave you with this.

Tony Iommi.
Created this -



Then this -

originally posted by: Maroboduus

originally posted by: supermilkman
You say the Mona Lisa is simple? Ok, go ahead and paint a copy of one.

You say modern music is simple and unsophisticated? Okay, go write and perform a good pop song. Hwavy metal is simple? Go write and perform a good heavy metal song.
See how that works? Your own argument doesn't hold up to your own standards.
Your complete lack of self-awareness is almost as incredible as your general ignorance. Almost.

I used to play cover songs all the time. However I know there is more to life than playing guitar. It would be selfish of me to keep playing music when there are more important things that I need to attend to.

Quit acting like some hormonal pre-pubescent teen. Music is a hobby, not a way of life.

a reply to: supermilkman

You're so biased... it's sad.