The Word was with God, and the Word was A god

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

Yeah, cuz you say so, right?

No...

because Johns gospel says so... has nothing to do with me

a reply to: SethTsaddik

I am no expert in Greek, I really said all I know, which is not that difficult.

I see, but then how did you reach the conclusion that John 1:1 is mistranslated? If you got the notion that John 1:1 was mistranslated from someone else then, wouldn't it be appropriate to attribute that notion to them and allow readers here to examine your source?

You've made some significant assertions about the relationship between Jesus and God, based on John 1:1 being mistranslated, but you haven't actually established that it is mistranslated, at least not yet. See what I mean?

a reply to: imwilliam

While reading a book a came across the information I provided, I didn't conclude it was mistranslated for no reason. It is accurate though.

And I have clearly explained everything.

Read the OP again I guess?

a reply to: Seede

I actually didn't make a serious mistake, but thanks for your concern, good looking out. It's a matter of two words, not difficult Seede.

But, you do complain about any challenge to Orthodoxy, and have, so I am glad you got that off your chest, not at all surprised you would say so and confident I did not.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Interesting is how you seem to make the whole argument of the trinity come down to one verse
There are many others in scripture you seem to have neglected

Why not throw up the other verses that infer that Christ I'd part of the trinity

It's only fair because this is THE verse when it comes to "proving" Jesus is God.

There are other passages that prove he is not but this thread is about this specific verse for a damn good reason.

It's interesting.

No it's one of tha MANY verses that indicate Jesus is God
One of the many

But what ever floats your boat

Show us this ''proof."

It doesn't matter what I show you
I don't think an argument is of any benefit to me

I am happy for you to believe what you want

No, it matters. I would be happy to concede if you could prove yourself.

This is just you admitting defeat, and I can live with that.

Seth, I have read your posts in this thread, your position is not worth me challenging
I am more than happy to concede to you, you won't believe anything I show you.
It's pointless
May I suggest a Google search not that I think you really care

Cute. I do know what projection is though so this is not a good strategy, you should just admit you CAN'T do it instead of pretending you just won't.

I agree though, my position is not worth challenging as it would result in defeat for you, I admire your courage in admitting that.

a reply to: Seede

What was that about JW literature?

What an odd assumption. Your explanation is not a solution to the problem you just recite some tradition you heard, you don't have knowledge of the editing process of the 4 first centuries, the fact that what I said is true is all I care about, and it is.

You don't deny it, you rationalize away the implications like any person would who believes Jesus is God.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

While reading a book a came across the information I provided

So cite the book.

It is accurate though.

Yeah . . . "Trust me" just doesn't cut it in these types of conversations.

And I have clearly explained everything.

No, all you've done is make some unsupported assertions. You really haven't explained anything.

Read the OP again I guess?

Why would I do that? It's an unsupported assertion about the translation John 1:1 by someone who acknowledges they aren't expert in Greek and who apparently can't/won't even cite an expert, (or anyone for that matter), who argues that John 1:1 is mistranslated in the way the op describes.

Sorry, but It's a lazy opening post and maybe a little deceptive about who's ideas are being put forward I think. And it doesn't appear that you're inclined/able to remedy any of that as the conversation unfolds.

I don't want to spoil your fun though, so I'll just bow out.

a reply to: SethTsaddik[/post]

Text I actually didn't make a serious mistake, but thanks for your concern, good looking out. It's a matter of two words, not difficult Seede. But, you do complain about any challenge to Orthodoxy, and have, so I am glad you got that off your chest, not at all surprised you would say so and confident I did not.

As usual you offer nothing in teaching or revealing theology to help others glean knowledge. Even honest discussion is more satisfying than nothing brought forth. My last post is all truth in the field of accepted theology and you very well know it. You chose a topic which you have never understood nor want to understand and that leads you into the confusion that engulfs you now.

Learn a great mystery being that you are a person of mystic adventures. Can a mortal man be a god? Can a god be a mortal man? Can a mortal man be God or can God be a mortal man?

Exodus_7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

What say you? Or do you not understand? Jesus was a mortal man of flesh but was He a god or was He of God or was He God? You still do not understand the mystery of The Most High EL. It is too far above your understanding because you have not the Holy Spirit to teach you. Your books are not of God nor do they teach you of God. Only the Holy Spirit can teach you the truth. You search the books for everlasting life but everlasting life is not in your books.

John 4:25,26 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

a reply to: SethTsaddik


Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”



But why I did that I dont know...

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
The Word was with God, and the Word was A god

"As I Am, so can you Be!" - Jesus

That means that He is no different then We!

The Word was with God, and the Word was A god, or the Word was God, mean the same thing!

a reply to: namelesss

Yeah... except he didn't say "As I Am, so can you Be"

so...

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
The Word was with God, and the Word was A god

"As I Am, so can you Be!" - Jesus

That means that He is no different then We!

"Yeah... except he didn't say "As I Am, so can you Be" " - Akragon

If Jesus had said that he would have been saying 'you are not the same as me but you can be'.
'I am' is present tense. 'Can be' is future tense. The point is no one 'can be'. No one lives in the future - there isn't a future - future is a word.

God is now - God is what IS. Words arise now and are not separate from now.
I am is now.
When God was asked his name he was said to have replied 'I am that I am'.
'I am' gets overlooked because of the belief in time. 'I will be', 'I can be', 'I was' - all myths, all stories. What isn't a story?

a reply to: AkragonI give you kudo's and a star you affirm that the words of God did not say that and that is a truth.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

If a man does not believe the facts he uses , in this case the word of God, to support his claims then his argument is moot.

Oh, I just noticed that Seth/. / . / . /Gnosisisfaith was banned again. Oh Well.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

I have seen Muslims use this argument. Problem is that it's quite simply bollocks. The Greek is ...

"En arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos."

Ton theon is the accusative case and is actually used first not second.

Everything about your post is just completely wrong. It's like arguing 2+2 can't equal 4 because 1 and 7 are different numbers .. the argument makes zero sense.

ETA: A direct translation would be ...

In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word. The trick to the verse is that the Word is being given the divinity of God .. but it also makes it clear the Word is not just another name for God, that they are separate. You could say the Word was divine .. but only God is divine .. so the Word is God while not being God the Father.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Actually no need to go to a dead Greek Language anyway, no proof that any of the Greek text copies we have are correct. Just need to go tot he reserved word of God

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Revelation 19:13 -16 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

It is rally quite clear that Seth is wrong and the word of God is true.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

While that may be true, people who like ignorance can hide behind it. I removed that by showing what he said is simply false, the verse does not say what he claimed it says. It's an argument he read online (likely from a pro-Islam website) and ate it up without even looking into it.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I have taken some of his claim an that of others and did what ATS does and used it to each the internet and found he and others have cut and pasted lots of stuff from other sites. He should use a link to where he gets his info, he wanted us to believe he came up with it all on his own.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest
-

a reply to: SethTsaddik This is because Father is God, Holy Spirit/Mother is God, and Son is God. They all have the same divine essence, but are different personalities. So the Trinity consists of three Co-equal Gods. Technically it is polytheism, but it does not reflect the power hierarchy of classical polytheism. Christ is only in subjection to the Father by choice.

I read this and wanted to reply but got caught up in another thought. You say that a trinity exists of polytheistic proportions in the Nazarene theology?

Why then is it taught --

1Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Corinthians 15:27,28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That does not teach that the Christ is coequal with the Most High EL.. Nor does it teach that there are two Holy Spirits. The Most High is total Spirit and the only existence of Holy purity. How then can there be another Holy Spirit of gender such as some teach? Does it not say by the apostles and the prophets that The Most High is one and is All in All?
What do you think?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Yep, I know it's a lie used by some Islam sites. So he copied and did not even fact check.