My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

a reply to: geezlouise

You are trying to give me what YOU like to receive.
One day, you will be full. Your hunger for sympathy will simply be no longer there. Like eating a huge meal and feeling sick of the thought of another mouthful, you will no longer want sympathy.
I've had years and years of sympathy from people, and at this point I am so sick of it. I don't usually tell people about this event anymore because the sympathy is so damned tiring.
I know you mean well. You can't imagine this yet- not wanting sympathy like a craving for chocolate? What???

It happens. It happens to a lot of people. And as much as you feel like a good girl offering it, you have no idea how mistaken you are.

Or listen to this guy who has never been in your place and hasn't studied the phenomena either.
Whatever. You asked for info on a public forum, and you got it - from people who know and are in the case you are asking about.

a reply to: Bluesma

Dang girl, calm your horses.

I am just saying that I feel sorry for you because you were raped when you were 5 years old, you don't have to chew me out for that.

You're being very bossy you know. But I guess you're older and know better, so I'll consider the possibility that one day I'll feel anger and get snarky whenever I see people showing sympathy for one another. As of now, I confess I'm not on your level because it really gives my heart double rainbows whenever I witness people being kind to one another.

Let's go back to the start.

Do you believe that clothes can provoke rape and if so, have you provided any evidence to back that claim?

Just wondering.

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

I appreciate the advice, but I have a pretty good handle on the professional aspect of this, including the four classifications of serial rapists. All of which are violent to varying degrees.

I wrote a paper on this subject years ago. It dealt with the psychological aspect of rape from the perpetrators perspective. I described it in this way. In order to feel like they are fulfilling their roles as men, most men feel a need to exert control over various aspects of their lives. Whether it be work, relationships, school, children, whatever. They just need to feel like they are leaders, in control, being manly. When you take that away from some men they have no method of coping. Others are fine and know that control is an illusion and comes and goes. But some men feel like failures, even as though their manhood is threatened. At that point it takes little to set them off. They need to exert a certain amount of control, usually more than people are willing to accept, over someone, anyone. Typically they pick women who are perceived as more easily controlled and can be manipulated and taken advantage of, all leading to that sense of power and control that is lacking. The rape is almost unnecessary if they can exert enough control and dominance otherwise. That is why they often look at the sexual aspect as consensual when it clearly isn't. The sex wasn't necessary. The 'relationship' evolved to that point in their eyes. Some of these men engage in what they perceive as romantic behavior, cuddling and kissing their victims, to further enforce the idea that it was consensual which feeds that need to control. They think it was their manly behavior that earned them sex. Having satisfied his need to exert control in his life the rapist is now free to return to his normal life until the next time he feels like he has no control and feels his manhood is threatened. And the cycle repeats.

This was my take on it. The terminology of the professional profilers is a bit different but at the heart of it all the ideas are very similar.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

That is a very interesting assessment, was there any data on rapists that where getting sexual fulfillment regularly from a normal partner, verses somebody that was celibate not by choice, and out of frustration and anger did it ?

I know of some wives that have basically cut their husbands off, they get it twice a year, these men are very frustrated and sad, do they have a greater chance to abuse girls and women ?

I know of one case where the man had a complete and total nervous breakdown crying all the time.
When he remarried and had a normal sex life that all ended.
I wonder if people understand just how damaging it is to end up in mismatched relationships like that.
I have done a little bit of volunteer counselling over the years it is really sad, horrible really, these men, they are snapping because they are getting denied for months at a time, and they are trying to stay loyal to their mate. They either get really depressed or really angry sometimes both. And they end up behaving badly in different ways, sometimes it manifests itself in sexual abuse.
None of this is justifiable of coarse, but it is an ugly reality.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: Bluesma

Dang girl, calm your horses.

I am just saying that I feel sorry for you because you were raped when you were 5 years old, you don't have to chew me out for that.

You're being very bossy you know. But I guess you're older and know better, so I'll consider the possibility that one day I'll feel anger and get snarky whenever I see people showing sympathy for one another. As of now, I confess I'm not on your level because it really gives my heart double rainbows whenever I witness people being kind to one another.

Let's go back to the start.

Do you believe that clothes can provoke rape and if so, have you provided any evidence to back that claim?

Just wondering.

To your question (which I have answered many times, in both long and very short fashion, is NO.

Now, I did not chew you out or try to victimize you. Neither did your brother, neither did the many other people you have seen as being big meanies to you on this forum in the past. I know you actually believe they were (and I am), but that is the effect of believing you are always and forever "Victim" - it screws with your perception.

You asked "why choose to not be victim?"
Apparently the only correct answer in this thread is "Never stop being victim! We love victims!"
Remember also that everyone loves being a Rescuer of victims... so there is more than a little self interest in that answer...

I gave you my answer. No, it didn't make me stronger. No, it didn't have any beneficial effect upon me that I can find. (I don't buy that Oprah crap). It sucked and it took me a long time to deal with it. It also got me stuck on the victim role, especially as everyone around me encouraged and fed that in order to be Rescuers. (bless their good intending hearts).

What changed my mind was the terrible truth that I was making bad guys out of innocent people in order to nurture that image. All the time. I felt terrible when I finally saw that clearly. I made the decision because my beloved victimhood was hurting other people, even when I truly believed it was only me.

When that day comes for you and see - oh! Bluesma wasn't a mean lady trying to hurt me! Oh Bluesma wrote fifteen times that the victims of rape are NOT responsible at all for the actions of their rapist... why didn't I SEE that?
(and your brother, and all the other big meanies that you have pointed out and so clemently forgave ...)

Remember to forgive yourself. Remember you didn't do it on purpose, and that you are far from being the only person to do it. It is very, very common. Just choose otherwise and move forward.

You might see a young person ask one day , "What is so bad about remaining a victim for years and years after an event??" You might decide to let them in on it. If they are just starting to ask, they are probably not altogether decided to recieve the answer and digest it. They may still be addicted to the role. But if they asked, it is because part of them is beginning to emerge.

They will call you a big meanie face and they will call out to their rescuers and point fingers, and not hear your words - consciously. But you will feel affection for them, remember your own struggle with it, and you'll know that little light emerging HEARD. It will rise when the time is right.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Rape is more an act of violence than an act of sex. Some rapists have long lasting relationships but still seek out that aggressive act of violence on others.

The men you refer to as being sexually cut off by their wives are acting out as you said. That is their way of dealing with situation. These men are more likely to find an extra-marital affair, including a professional, than commit rape. Anger and frustration in relationships manifests itself in a variety of ways. Usually it is not enough to make an otherwise normal man step across the line and rape someone. Rape is big. Its is not something a man does simply because he is frustrated from not having sex often enough. He might develop tennis elbow, or go broke on a local call girl. But that is one huge line to cross just for sexual gratification that can be achieved by other means.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Anaana


What were you wearing when you were attacked? Were you dancing or behaving in a way that could have been construed by your attacker as "provocative"? Could your attacker have perceived your actions as consent to rape?

Since there is no such thing as consent to rape, the last question is completely irrational. That doesn't exist.

And yet, women and girls are and have been asked that question repeatedly by law enforcement officers, by lawyers and judges now certainly in the UK, they are not allowed to, but wherever you are, if asked those questions when reporting a rape to anyone the response that should be given is "Can I please talk to someone else?" And you keep responding like that until you find someone who is capable of taking your statement without making those kind of prejudicial judgements.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Now, let's recap. I am tired of answering the same question over and over, so I just went to back to all of my posts and copied :

You haven't answered the questions that I keep putting to you, you do everything to avoid doing so, and to evade answering those questions.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Don't confuse your situation of being a child victim to others of different circumstance.
I understand it is a sensitive issue though, and hard not to equate your experience with those of others.

think I have seen a very wide array of situations labelled "rape" throughout my life, and I first pointed out very clearly that there are differences.

to the op- I will repeat what I said to you at the beginning- do not include yourself in such concerns. Your case was not of this type. That does not mean this type doesn't exist and should not be addressed.

It is this level of ignorance that is what I am trying to explain to you is both harmful and irrational. Rape is a crime, all by itself. The act of having sex without informed consent. There may be additional crimes committed during the enactment of rape, there may not be, but rape is rape. There are not "different" types of rapes, just one, sex without informed consent. A rapist may also falsely imprison or torture there victim, their victim may also be a child. These are all additional crimes and will be treated as such by the courts by the prosecution and defence. Rape though remains rape.

That you have seen so many different "types" of rape speaks of the way in which you judge and categorise other, not of the crime of rape itself.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Yes, there are many different situations and contexts in which rape occurs.

Yes, but there are a number of common factors though, particularly that the victim is usually in some way isolated.

originally posted by: Bluesma
My case was not the most prevalent kind, (and hers wasn't either).

So? It was still rape.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Pedophiles are excited by different stimuli.

As are all rapists.

originally posted by: Bluesma
No I did not do anything that might have stimulated a non pedophile. Either did she, I bet. I knew the person, it was my uncle.

No rape victim does anything to stimulate a rapist, the rapist is wholly responsible for their own stimulation.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Well you are welcome to analyze as you wish. But I've spent most of my life going through shrinks and working on self knowledge. Who knows, maybe a layperson who has read a few posts on the internet might suddenly prove them all wrong!

I can only go by your posting history. Your Mother according to your accounts appears to me to have been a neglectful and abusive Mother, and a generally mentally unstable adult. I don't think that anyone with those kinds of issues should be given license to practice on other people and I would take any learning that you derived from her with a pinch of salt. You come across as incredibly insecure and I have seen that other members, such as geezlouise, who meet that projection with kindness and understanding are met with passive aggression or if they have the audacity to accuse you of being demanding and needy, downright dismissal and aggression. I accept that you may be so lacking in awareness to realise that this is how you appear to some people, but while you may have been making conscious decisions all your life, subconsciously you look like a mess.

originally posted by: Bluesma
What a professional might say is that I am seeing in her a state of being I have been in the past, and interacting with her as such. Because she asked "why stop being a victim??" I know the answer, I know the benefit. I've seen her talk about all this before, and I did not offer any input. If she is happy with her current state of mind, then there is no reason. If someone starts to wonder and ask.... that is when it is appropriate to offer some of your own experience.

Are you a professional? Or do you just have a lot of experience with therapy? Not the same things you know? And as I said, what you learnt from your Mother, that should be treated as the machinations of a twisted mind, judging by what you say of her of course.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I am not cut off from my emotions.

Not all of them, no.

originally posted by: Bluesma
This is the thing that makes a big difference:

When you realize, OP, that while you are seeing yourself as a victim in each moment, the role of victim MUST have a tyrant or "victimizer" right?

Bull#!

I am not even going to dignify the rest with a response.

originally posted by: Bluesma
When that day comes for you and see - oh! Bluesma wasn't a mean lady trying to hurt me! Oh Bluesma wrote fifteen times that the victims of rape are NOT responsible at all for the actions of their rapist... why didn't I SEE that?
(and your brother, and all the other big meanies that you have pointed out and so clemently forgave ...)

Then explain to me why you think men are incapable of controlling themselves once they are sexually aroused?

Why do you think it is appropriate to tell men that women communicate their willingness to have sex through their mode of dress?

It seems to me that you are the one causing all the confusion because you insist on judging all women by your own standards. That, and how you deal with being a victim of rape, is about you, geezelouise will and is dealing with it in the way that works for her, try to be a little supportive perhaps, you know? Understanding and empathic, instead of impatient and angry, and yes, mean. Repeatedly so, on multiple threads. I think what she is saying is that your way doesn't work for her, and she wants to find another way, but listening isn't your strong suit is it, I can't count the number of times I have come across a post of yours where you begin with "I haven't read the thread, but...". Perhaps you should work on that?

a reply to: Vroomfondel

That sounds about right, thanks for the reply, it is most insightful.

a reply to: Anaana

Did you look up the research on types of rapists?
I can give referals, but you have to do your own footwork at some point.
Yes, there are different types of rapists, with different types of motivations.

The most common type in the US is the Power Rapist, which is acting upon sexual fantasies and desire to forcefully seduce a woman who seems to like sex, but reject him personally.

This is one of the kinds I addressed, and that do not apply in the cases of small children.

There is the courts, and there is the law, and that is not here on ATS.

There are contexts in which a combination of behaviors can pull attention from Power Rapists.
There is no "dress code", yet certain ways of dressing, combined with certain attitudes and behaviors, in a certain environment, is likely to attract and stimulate them.

That does not put any blame upon the victim in any way. It does mean being mindful and self aware is a good strategy in public. Know thyself, pay attention to your environment, be a warrior of integrity. Besides helping you avoid predators, it is excellent in all areas of life.

It is something people would do well to work on all their life, and is never "done". It is also difficult, and not to be expected of children, who lack the experience necessary.

When it comes to subconscious signalling, like that of the victim mentality, these reactions have been studied and proven, and yet, they are of the human side of the issue - not the judicial.

If you want to put them into a judicial arena, you are in for big frigging mess, because there is no clear cut fault in human interactions. We know that women will automatically sit nearest a male, or near a seat a male has recently been in, when they are in their cycle of fertility.... can you imagine sticking that into a court trial? You were in your fertility cycle, and stood right next to him, so it is your fault and he shouldn't be punished!


At some point, you need to address human issues amongst each other, instead of insisting the law be in your head, in your home, in your bedroom, in your marriage...! There are human things to teach your children about to help them in the world, that have nothing to do with laws. The laws are easy and based on the simple facts, that is their role. The subtilities of self knowledge and interaction are not the schools job, or the court, to teach.

explain to me why you think men are incapable of controlling themselves once they are sexually aroused?

I pointed out that some men are psychologically and mentally abnormal, and have problems of this sort.
That is just a fact.
Twisting that into "Men" in general turns that statement into something else entirely (and no I don't think you did that on accident).

Why do you think it is appropriate to tell men that women communicate their willingness to have sex through their mode of dress?

I do not, and did not! In fact, I pointed out that many young women these days do NOT. They follow trends in fashion, in the media, and their entourage.... they dress in ways that do NOT express what they really feel and want in relation to the exterior world.
My suggestion to young women it to consider being more mindful of dressing in ways that express themself individually and according to their intents.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I pointed out that some men are psychologically and mentally abnormal, and have problems of this sort.
That is just a fact.

Is it? Could you evidence that "fact" for me, because frankly I don't believe it? And to how many actual rapes does this "fact" apply? And in relation to men who have similar problems but choose not to isolate women and put themselves in a position where they may lose control and rape them?

That is a very, very, very rare proportion of the population that are physically incapable of preventing themselves from penetrating someone without their consent.

Please do not mistake the excuses that rapist make for "facts".

a reply to: Bluesma

I asked what's wrong with being a victim when you're actually... a victim?

I never asked about anything else. What happened was... you read my little speech about being a victim of a crime and you got triggered and needed to defend your position. The position that I had accidentally attacked by expressing my feelings.

That's what is happening here.

It just seems like your panties were all in a bunch (and still are). If that makes me a victim of your wedgie? Then so be it. Im a victim of your wedgie. It is what it is!

originally posted by: Bluesma
I do not, and did not! In fact, I pointed out that many young women these days do NOT. They follow trends in fashion, in the media, and their entourage.... they dress in ways that do NOT express what they really feel and want in relation to the exterior world.
My suggestion to young women it to consider being more mindful of dressing in ways that express themself individually and according to their intents.

Again, this is what you said...

originally posted by: Bluesma
The way you dress and make yourself appear speaks to others. It tells of what you feel like today, what you are looking for. Why dress extremely provocatively if you are NOT in the mood for sex?


This is a very simple question that men can't help asking. Why put out an image of your intents and emotions that is false?

Your judgement.

Pulling aside my witchy nose for a minute, why don't we start looking at the topic in other ways.

Differences Between Child Sexual Abusers and Rapists

Child sexual abusers have been difficult to classify as they vary in economic status, gender, marital status, ethnicity, and sexual orientation. Child sexual abusers are often characterized as exhibiting poor social skills, having feelings of inadequacy or loneliness, or being passive in relationships (Groth, 1979; Marshall, 1993). They differ from rapists with respect to thought processes and affect, and often describe their offending behaviors as uncontrollable, stable, and internal, whereas rapists attribute their offenses to external, unstable, and controllable causes (Garlick, Marshall, & Thorton, 1996). Child sexual abusers display deficits in information-processing skills and maintain cognitive distortions to deny the impact of their offenses (e.g., having sex with a child is normative; Hayashino, Wurtele, & Klebe, 1995). In contrast, rapists display distorted perceptions of women and sex roles, and often blame the victim for their offense (Polaschek, Ward, & Hudson, 1997). With respect to affect, child sexual abusers assault to alleviate anxiety, loneliness, and depression. Rapists typically assault as a result of anger, hostility, and vindictiveness (Polaschek, Ward, & Hudson, 1997). Many of these characteristics have been incorporated into the typologies of rapists and child sexual abusers (Camilleri & Quinsey, 2008; Groth, 1979; Knight & Prentky, 1990).

Rapists

In comparison to child sexual abusers, rapists are more likely to be younger, to be socially competent, and to have engaged in an intimate relationship (Gannon & Ward, 2008). Rapists differ from child sexual abusers in that they tend to be of lower socioeconomic status and are more likely to abuse substances and exhibit a personality disorder (e.g., antisocial disorder) or psychosis (Langstrom, Sjostedt, & Grann, 2004). In addition, rapists often display the following criminogenic needs: intimacy deficits, negative peer influences,
deficits in sexual and general self-regulation
, and offense-supportive attitudes (e.g., justification of the sexual offense and feelings of entitlement in relation to the expression of a strong sexual desire) (Craissati, 2005).

Rapists have also been classified based upon motivational characteristics. Groth (1979) created a typology based upon the degree of aggression, the underlying motivation of the offender, and the existence of other antisocial behaviors, which resulted in four types of rapists. The power-reassurance or sexual-aim rapist is characterized by feelings of inadequacy and poor social skills and does not inflict injury upon his victims (National Center for Women and Policing, 2001). The violence used by the power-reassurance rapist is only sufficient to achieve the compliance of the victim or to complete the sexual act. Such an individual may perceive that the victim has shown a sexual interest in him, or that by the use of force the victim will grow to like him (Craissati, 2005). The power-assertive or antisocial rapist is impulsive, uses aggressive methods of control, and abuses substances. His sexual assaults are often unplanned and he is unlikely to use a weapon (Groth, 1979). The third type of rapist is the anger-retaliation or aggressive-aim rapist, who is motivated by power and aggression. This individual sexually assaults for retaliatory reasons and often degrades or humiliates the victim.

I don't know how much I can put up here without it being against T&C's... so here's another link, to the source of this
Source

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: Bluesma

I asked what's wrong with being a victim when you're actually... a victim?

You are not actually a victim.
Your rapist is gone.
There's only us here now.
You were a victim once, in a specific incident.
It is not *what you are* it was an experience you had.

Being a victim is painful, it hurts, in all sorts of ways... why do you want to be a victim right now?

originally posted by: Anaana

I do not, and did not! In fact, I pointed out that many young women these days do NOT. They follow trends in fashion, in the media, and their entourage.... they dress in ways that do NOT express what they really feel and want in relation to the exterior world.
My suggestion to young women it to consider being more mindful of dressing in ways that express themself individually and according to their intents.



The way you dress and make yourself appear speaks to others. It tells of what you feel like today, what you are looking for. Why dress extremely provocatively if you are NOT in the mood for sex?




This is a very simple question that men can't help asking. Why put out an image of your intents and emotions that is false?

So... you use my quotes, and you don't even read them, or what???

"men often wonder why women don't dress to express their self..." That is an acknowledgement that many women do NOT dress to express their self. It says I have had men wonder why they do not. Men who find rather simple- you want something, you say it, you do it. You don't you don't. Simple!

But for women is not that simple usually, and many men know it (hence the millions of jokes about women being impossible to understand)

Those quotes sustain what I have said. Thank you.
Yes, once again, I think it would be a good idea for young women to consider dressing in a way that expresses their current mood, feeling, desire and intent, in order to be less of an enigma.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Well in that case I don't have to remind you that clothing very much can influence a power rapist's and date rapist's victimology. I don't think I need to reiterate why that is. From whatever angle you look at it; it is so.

No, that is NOT blaming the victim. It IS an analysis on the criminal. Of course, as already conceded all through this thread, clothing only matters within a bigger picture, and it is not always a factor.

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree.

The clothing is not the key. Women can be sexy without being revealing. Sometimes its what you don't show rather than what you do show. There is more to being sexually attractive than the clothes you wear. Sexy is an attitude far more than a look. Two women wearing somewhat revealing clothes may have two very different attitudes. One might be very open and welcoming while the other is very cold and unapproachable.

In the end there is still the same fact to deal with - rape is violence not sex. You do not have to be sexy to be a victim of rape. Little old ladies walking home from the grocery store get raped. No sexy clothing or actions of any kind. Its violence, not sex. Violence doesn't care what you look like or how you dress.

a reply to: Bluesma

The only thing I'm a victim of right now is your wedgie, lol.

How many times to I have to say it?

Twice.

So far.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Exactly why I noted that clothing is one factor within a larger scope of variables. Of course, you are correct in many ways; however, it is ignorant to dismiss the role attire can play in many cases of power rape and especially date rape. It's a factor all too often. Yes, many other things can be at play up to and including physical characteristics. Maybe the victim looks similar to someone who turned humiliated the offender at some point in his life. Maybe the offendee has long since fantasized about ravaging the librarian type. Surely, the nuances of the individual rapist develop specifically to his own past experiences. I'd guess that what motivates a rapist is as diverse as why people have different fetishes.

But in our culture you can bet that clothing has something to do with a lot of cases. I've been present in too many parole hearings and heard too many explainations from actual rapists to dismiss it as a factor. My dad has interrogated man, many offenders (including rapists) in TDCJ. There IS validity to the idea that attire plays a role. But again, clothing is only part of a bigger picture, and it isn't always a factor at all.