My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

a reply to: geezlouise
Your brother was right. And you are right.

But you have to take things in context. So while the whole "it does not matter what anybody is wearing the blame falls on the attacker and nobody else" Well, there not talking about the attacker here. After all he or she would not care. What there saying is you need to use a bit of common sense and have a bit of situational awareness. If you dont have that then your a fool and a danger not only to yourself but those around you.

As there are to many situations and contexts for such a thing. It becomes a meaningless topic to talk about unless you but it in some sort of context.

For instance there have been many women wearing scantly or jogging clothing which have jogged and nothing happened. And there have also have been cases such as this in the vid bellow. Both happen and to argue about or say "oh she should not have been raped and murdered just because she was wearing tight fitting clothes" is silly. It's not victim blaming, It's common sense.

It may have not have anything to do with it, or it may have had something, but it likely attracted somebody's attention, and she did not live to regret it....Situational awareness and common sense would go a long way, if you don't have that or don't know the difference you all better get some and learn some, no matter who you are or what age.

While the rapist and killer may have done it for the power or control of it, that does not rule out that she did not became a target because of other things. To rule out one possible outcome, or not rule in one possible outcome, all because you want it to be only be one possible outcome, is just dam silly, as most times its a whole bunch of possible outcomes which came together to one conclusion.

In this case in particular I don't think it was the clothes or anything but the fact that she did not have any situational awareness. Always mind your surroundings. That's what your brother was saying, and failing miserableness to get that point across. It has nothing to do with clothes, per say, but nobody is saying that in some situations and places that it does or will not. And unless you give a specific context, may as well be screeching and spitting against the wind because it means nothing... Context right? Who would have thought there would be more then one of them things.

originally posted by: Bluesma
So... if you agreed all this time, why the insults and claims of objection??

I stated that clearly, in my second post on the thread, I further clarified that that was my position. I have not been the one attempting to twist the conversation to imply that I have said otherwise. When you have made allegations that I have stated anything to the contrary, I have asked you to demonstrate where I said that and you have failed to do so and changed your position. Please go back and re-read all my posts, and yours, you have failed to present a cohesive argument as to why you believe that it is appropriate to believe that by dressing in a sexy manner, or behaving in an overtly sexual way, will increase the risk of being raped as you stated in your initial posts in response to the OP and the point to which I have consistently been arguing.

This...

The way you dress and make yourself appear speaks to others. It tells of what you feel like today, what you are looking for. Why dress extremely provocatively if you are NOT in the mood for sex?

And this...

As pointed out, there are different kinds of situations - rape of children, attacks by strangers.... then there is date rape, for example. Or cases in which a girl might go to a party dressed extremely sexy, drunk and dancing seductively on the pool table...

It is your subjective view that someone who is dressed provocatively is in the mood for sex? Even if that is the case how and what relation does that have to the criminal act of rape? Dressing provocatively is not an invitation to be raped, is it? Explain what you mean by these remarks.

originally posted by: Bluesma

I did? I will look again, but it seems I described it one time, in one post, but on the other hand you have mentioned it multiple times... Is it that I keep returning to it, or you do?

What I meant is that you are responding from that perspective, you are not looking beyond your own judgementalism. Why do you believe that dressing provocatively will in any way increase the risk of getting raped? Why do you teach your children those values rather than, it is never, under any circumstances appropriate to rape someone? Rape is a criminal act, it is not a misunderstanding, those can usually be explained away, rape is a crime and as such it should be treated as one. Claiming that they way in which a women dresses has any bearing upon whether or not she was attacked is a belief that belongs to the dark ages.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Exactly, congratulations! Your continuuing focus paid off- you finally got what I was saying when I described that.

Yes, but what I still don’t understand is why you brought it up in the first place. It is irrelevant to the discussion in hand.

originally posted by: Bluesma
It is NOT rape, and yet certain people (in that case, the person counseling me was a feminist activist) prefer to use all kinds of manipulation and lies to up the stats and make men look even more evil, and women even more innocent.

“Certain people”? Who, what and why? Your experience is totally inapplicable to the discussion in hand, which is, whether there is a relationship between how a woman dresses and if that influences, or indeed increases her likelihood of, being raped.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Because sometimes young people lack experience and understanding of themselves and other humans. They don't always recognize when power is being abused (by themself or another) It is a common phenomena. It is less likely to end up in unethical or disrespectful behavior if an adult informs them- as in the case of my kids.

I find it to be an uncommon phenomenon, but I suppose, as I mentioned regarding “your preferences”, a lot is in the company that you choose to keep.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Ask around, see how many men have been told by their female partners they should be able to pick up what is going on with her without her having to say it explicitly.

I favour the company of articulate and intelligent women who speak their needs plainly and frankly. I know “players” of both sexes exist, doesn’t mean I choose their company or am remotely interested in their opinions on “playing”.

originally posted by: Bluesma
To a young man, who is not very familiar with the depth of female psychology, has been learning from porn stars and video games, seeing a an impressive woman up above him on the table dancing, laughing, shaking her breast and butt in mens faces, she might not look so "vulnerable". In fact, these days, young women will put on quite a show of being sexually liberated, and proud that their milk shakes bring the boys in the yard. This behavior does not immediately scream "vulnerable" "in need of help". To some young men used to seeing aggressive women in video games, there is not a bit of vulnerability there.

I think that you have a very low opinion of males and a hideously outdated understanding of the “depth of female psychology”. Or perhaps just, speak for yourself love. LOL. Me use words to communicate. Me evolved beyond monkey.

cont'd

originally posted by: Bluesma
Does Miley Cyrus look vulnerable and in need of help on stage?
Miley Cyrus has body guards.

Your point? Does how Miley Cyrus express herself advertise to you that she wants to be raped? Good friends are better than bodyguards. The type of friends who don’t judge you for what you wear, but for who you are. Didn’t you teach your kids to look with their eyes and not with their fingers? That seems to me, what Miley’s saying, and no, I do not think for a moment that she looks vulnerable on stage. She looks like a powerful young woman enjoying her first rush of sexuality. I think that and she are beautiful, in that way that youth just is. I think that that should be celebrated not turned into a taboo, something dirty to be hidden away.

originally posted by: Bluesma
You have randomly decided to stick insults about my family members into your intellectual debate, and you don't even bother to say, sorry, I got a little carried away?

I’m not sorry, there is nothing random about it, you said this...

This is a very simple question that men can't help asking. Why put out an image of your intents and emotions that is false?

I don’t know men that ask that question, hence why I was pointing out that perhaps you are judging a little too much by your own standards. If a woman chooses to advertise her sexual availability, that is her right to do so, but that is not why women are raped. To tell anyone, or to educate your children to the effect that all women who dress scantily are advertising their sexual availability is not only more reflective of you, but it is also deeply irresponsible because it creates the false belief that dressing provocatively leads to rape, and that is why so many people continue to believe it, and yet, “nice” well-behaved, demurely dressed girls and women, even withered old grandmas, still keep getting raped.

It is simple, rape is wrong. That’s all you have to teach, because there are no “what ifs”, there is no excuse. There are no qualifiers.

originally posted by: Bluesma
The most common type in the United States is the Power Rapist.

And where do you address the point in hand, does the way in which a woman dresses have any influence on why her rapist chose to rape her?

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
Sex is a commodity. Plain and simple. Believe it or not

Yes, I know. I don't believe it should be one. Is sex sold? Yes. Do I believe it should be? No. So, I am opposed to the sale of sex but that does not mean that I am in any way ignorant of the global suffering that is caused by the international traffiking of sex slaves, of both genders, adults and children, and that is, in fact, one of the reasons I am opposed to the sale of sex. Clearer?

I don't believe in marriage either, but it happens, ya know?



ETA, I would also like to point out that in some areas of the world, even in the US, prostitution, a person's own body, is the only commodity that they have to exchange for the things that they and their families need to survive. I do not begrudge that individual that right either, or believe that I am in any place to make judgement of that decision. We all do what we have to do to survive when the need arises.

Your brother is a idiot to think revealing clothing will result in rape. Actually, I read some where that rapist looks for people who are submissive like body language, the way they talk, to personality ect... Rapist are about domination.

Wearing revealing clothing promotes body confidence, switch probably will turn off rapist as they want a easy victim.

Basically, I am screwed as I am very submissive.. :| hope no rapist notice that in public (even tho it's a rarity to get raped from a complete stranger).

Blaming victims on there clothing 'because they make themselves a target' is like saying 'oh, you were molested at age of 11? shouldn't of been a pre-tween then. Sorry" There is no excuse or common sense to blame or put fault on the victim for a criminals actions.

originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
Sex is a commodity. Plain and simple. Believe it or not

Yes, I know. I don't believe it should be one. Is sex sold? Yes. Do I believe it should be? No. So, I am opposed to the sale of sex but that does not mean that I am in any way ignorant of the global suffering that is caused by the international traffiking of sex slaves, of both genders, adults and children, and that is, in fact, one of the reasons I am opposed to the sale of sex. Clearer?

I don't believe in marriage either, but it happens, ya know?

ETA, I would also like to point out that in some areas of the world, even in the US, prostitution, a person's own body, is the only commodity that they have to exchange for the things that they and their families need to survive. I do not begrudge that individual that right either, or believe that I am in any place to make judgement of that decision. We all do what we have to do to survive when the need arises.

OK, then at least we're on the same page as to how the term "comodity" is being defined. Semantics...

Webster has 5 definitions (the 3rd being obsolete). The definition that was in my mind was the 2nd one which doesn't necessarily involve trade or market. Patience is used as the example, and obviously patience cannot be sold.

Sex barely fits the criteria for the 1st definition which mostly deals with goods that can be mass produced, but it is debatable. The type of commodity you had in mind for sex probably best fits into the 4th definition.

Now we know what each other means.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist

Since rape in all its forms is a reality, I submit that we take numerous precautions. Modest clothing.

In my time .... a long time ago admittedly

We were taught that *mystery*

was a potent attraction, and to leave nothing to the imagination was foolhardy!


However these days there is (analogically) no journey the destination is plainly

there.


That being said 'modesty' is totally subjective .... a bare arm? bare wrists or

ankles? a bare back? neck and shoulders?


Surely one mans modesty is another's indecency

You make a very valid point; however, I would imagine that 'modesty' is determined by the dominating culture within a society. And to be fair, our American society is shifting the balance of cultural prevelence. Ergo, what is and isn't considered modest dress is a little up in the air at these days. That's something to be determined, but I still stand by what I said. Dressing modestly is a good precaution to take.

Surely, the sight of a woman's ankles doesn't spark sexual interest in most men anymore because our sense of modest dress has changed. Nobody will be drawn to a woman because they see her calfs.

We all seem to block out the ultra-exciting sight of a woman in her bra and panties while we are at the beach (bikinis) because it not considered indescent. bra and panties spark greater sexual lust while a bikini does not. Why? Because of how our brains process it.

I hope what I wrote makes sense. It's early for me, and I'm in a hurry.

Anaana, I can't respond to all your points because I am out with family and on a small phone.

Never, EVER, did I make any suggestion that victims of rape should PUNISHED because of how they dressed or behaved. That is twisting to a ridiculous extent - as is the claim I said behaviors justify rape that might occur.

I shared three very different experiences with rape in my life. You got stuck on one and forgot the rest. You don't know my mother was a pyshcotherapist who worked primarily with victims of sex crimes, and my stepmother is on a board of clinical psychologists who evaluate criminals up for parole. She has been working closely with some even very famous serial killers in her career, of the most dangerous kind. I've had most of my life filled with input on this subject in depth.

I am here pointing out som of the less discussed aspects of topic, precisely because they are less discussed - not because I think they are all that exist. But because they seem to be taboo, by the reactions here.

And yet, false accusations (not always thought out and planned, but more products of moral contradictions and social pressure to be victim/goodgirl rather than confused girl ) happen. This is relevant in speaking to young people about considering carefully what they want and getting that straight in their mind before going out. This has nothing to do with legal punishment or judgement. It is to HELP them maybe avoid some painful experiences. That's all.

Figuring out what you intend, and working on integrity (walking your talk) is just a valuable lesson for life in general.


6 apparently you did not READ about the most common type of rapist in America - Which IS acting upon sexual fantasy, and the impression that the person will enjoy the act once over the first resistance.
So much for the repeated claims that this crime has NOTHING to do with sex.

I see I must also point out that the fact the majority of rapes happen between college students.
What kind of behaviors do we see in college students? Do I really need to paint a picture?

Then there is the other experiences I brought up, like the retarded boy who violently raped a women in our apartment building (after a failed attempt to rape me). I am sick of "Gee, I have no problem controlling MYself, so why would anyone else?? That's ridiculous!"
Maybe try working in a facility for people with mental disabilities, and you might see what this is about. They are all over, and they are NOT LIKE YOU. They are not "evil" but they have disabilities that make what is easy for you, sometimes impossible for them.

So girls with behaviors like Miley Cyrus in public do not come off as vulnerable to you either, so we can leave behind the "MY kids would try to help her". Go back to the Power Rapist in that bar with your daughter acting like Miley Cyrus. Look at his profile. She seem so liberated, loves sex,... and yet she doesn't want HIM. She'll see... I'll make her see...I might have to force her at first, but she likes sex and she'll be so impressed with my performance, she'll probably be begging for more....

See, I've hung out with the girls who felt so liberated... one of the things that happens in those moments is you feel invincible, drunk with the attention, and you stop thinking about your own vulnerability... and you walk out the back door alone without a second thought, for example. But power rapist brings you back down to earth about your relative lack of strength. Too bad the nice guys are inside watching protectively over the girls who were very obviously showing themselves to be vulnerable and fragile.....

When I was speaking about teaching my kids about abuse of power, apparently you misunderstood.
I was speaking of much more subtle things (dont rape is sort of a no-brainer, don't you think???)
I meant, I taught my girl, don't bat your eyelashes and wiggle in flirtatious ways unless you are sure you want to get together with a guy.. because otherwise you are misusing your sexual power. You are taking advantage of their weakness.

I mean, I taught my boys not to stick their chest into the faces of younger or smaller individuals, just to manipulate them to go along with you. This is abusing your power to manipulate others and take advantage of their weakness.
(do it if the person is challenging you and you have decided to fight). But subtle manipulation this way can become almost subconscious if you don't remind yourself and notice it.
They didn't do these things, because we spoke of them before they could. This was brought up within the context of developing integrity.

a reply to: CaptainHook

Revealing clothing is all too often a sign a submission and a distinct lack of self-confidence. In fact, as a fat man I always used to go for the scantly-clad girls because I had more self-esteem dealing with what I perceived to be an easy girl. Typically, I was right. If not for that visual clue, I probably never would have "scored" until I grew up and developed real self-confidence. Now I'm married to a beautiful woman who does have self-confidence. On her own accord, you won't catch her anywhere in revealing clothes except maybe the beach or swimming pool.

Or, Take Hillary Clinton. As much as I dislike her I must admit that she is a power woman full of self-esteem and self-confidence. You won't ever find her dressed like a hooker.

But, as noted in earlier posts, depending on the type of rapist it may not matter what the victim is wearing because clothes are not a reliable tell of one's self-confidence. Some people wear extra clothing due to insecurity and some wear less due to insecurity. Mannerism, behavior, and speech provide those tells.

Your brother is wrong on many points. First, rape is not about sexy. Rape is not sex. Rape is an act of violence. It has nothing to do with being sexy. Sexy is not just limited to the clothes you wear. I see women every day not revealing anything that are incredibly sexy. It has always been the rule to blame the victim in rape. Whether it be revealing clothing, the classic "rustling pantyhose", or whatever. Men need to take responsibility for their actions and stop blaming women for being desirable. The problem is there are too many rape cultures that excuse the behavior. Some of these men may say that the revealing clothing caused their actions but that is a sad little excuse for not being able to control their baser instincts. In short, savages act like savages and will use any excuse they can think of to explain their behavior.

a reply to: filthyphilanthropistRape, and hitting on girls are virtually not the same thing nor have the same mentality. Clothing does not cause rape. Rapist cause rape.

You can't compare your experience on getting easy sex by what you perceived to mentality of rapist. There is 0 evidence clothing causes any form of rape. It's like saying if you think you want to harm someone. You have the mentality of sociopath or a killer.

You can't compare people who want easy sex to people who have mentality problems.

You were looking for easy casual sex with women, not looking for vulnerable defendless woman.
well.wvu.edu...

www.consented.ca...

a reply to: Vroomfondel

You should go back and read some of Bluesma's posts. She provides a more professional viewpoint on the subject based on the studies of genuine experts. Specifically, read her comments on the most prevelant type of rape in America, the power rapist.

Nobody in this thread has made any excuses for rape, nor have they blamed the victim. And the brother in the OP didn't either, not really. From the two or three sentences dedicated to what the brother said, I gather he commented on the fact that a lot of women do sort of rub their 'lady parts' in your face and expect nobody to react. Frankly, that's a valid point. It isn't blaming the victim, and it isn't making excuses for the rapist. It certainly isn't a reason to not hold a rapist fully accountable and throw him into the lion's den of prison. Rape and go to prison. I'm for it.

And possibly, the brother in the OP could really have been expressing his opposition to promiscuous dress style more so than relating it to rape. It may have just come out that way. It's really tough to tell based on two or three sentences about him and his comment.

originally posted by: Restricted
a reply to: geezlouise

If you dress like a pig you should expect to be treated like one.

...and if you make a comment like this, expect to never be treated as an equal.

**EDIT** Reading all these comments where people blame the victim by just saying she didn't dress classy enough is enough for anyone to want to rape sickens me. You can clearly tell where rape has reared it's ugly head in someone's life and who they and their friends/family have never experienced themselves but what is shown on tv. I shake my head at all of you. I really hope nobody ever has to experience this with anyone they know.

Wow.

a reply to: CaptainHook

I can only respond by quoting another poster's comment on the thread. I think you aren't considering the different types of rapists. Their motives differ.

. Nicholas Groth studies rape offenders, and has written extensively about his findings.

He finds three main types:
The Anger Rapist
The Power Rapist
The Sadistic Rapist

The most common type in the United States is the Power Rapist.

To sum it up, I'll grab the descriptions from Wikipedia, though it is not the best source, it provides a simple summary
(I highly recommend the book)


Power Rapist
For these rapists, rape becomes a way to compensate for their underlying feelings of inadequacy and feeds their issues of mastery, control, strength, authority and capability. The intent of the power rapist is to assert their competency. The power rapist relies upon verbal threats, intimidation with a weapon, and only uses the amount of force necessary to subdue the victim.

The power rapist tends to have fantasies about rape and sexual conquests. They may believe that even though the victim initially resists them, that once they overpower their victim, the victim will eventually enjoy the rape. The rapist needs to believe that the victim enjoyed what was done to them, and they may even ask the victim to meet them for a date later.



Because this is only a fantasy, the rapist does not feel reassured for long by either his own performance or the victim's response. The rapist feels that he must find another victim, convinced that this victim will be "the right one".

Hence, their offenses may become repetitive and compulsive.

a reply to: EtoileI know right? It pisses me off when someone says something like that.. *hugs* I'm going to ignore any further comment who disagree with my opinion.

originally posted by: geezlouise.I was making the point that we should all basically get to wear whatever we like and if people stare then that's ok as long as no one crosses that line

You're intepretting what he said the wrong way I think. You think he was trying to control your dress standards.

Maybe his real intentions were to protect you. By saying that your dress code might attract unwanted attention from people who cannot control themselves.

She acts and dresses like a slut, but doesn't want to be objectified.

www.foxnews.com...

a reply to: Bluesma

No worries, I'd rather wait for a coherent reply to the specific points, namely these comments that you made in your initial post...

originally posted by: Bluesma
The way you dress and make yourself appear speaks to others. It tells of what you feel like today, what you are looking for. Why dress extremely provocatively if you are NOT in the mood for sex?

originally posted by: Bluesma
This is a very simple question that men can't help asking. Why put out an image of your intents and emotions that is false?

No hurry

a reply to: Restricted

Wow, you're just a big meanie.

I'm not super familiar with that artist but it's probably safe to say that she does not act, or dress like a slut. She dresses
like everyone else and makes art and has a talent.

Nobody wants to be objectified (unless you have a fetish for that then maybe). You don't want to be objectified because of your big boobs and reasonably so- but until you give people the chance to look pass your chest, you'll never be anything more than a big fat boob.

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
a reply to: Vroomfondel
You should go back and read some of Bluesma's posts.

Are you two dating or what? Lol.

Put her in a potatoe sac real quick before anyone looks at her... cause rapists. Modesty is classy. Ban makeup!