My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

What a shame. Because while you can easily keep your money in your pocket? We cannot escape our bodies.

Except through death.

And I don't know about you but I wanna live.

And I don't want to just shrug my shoulders about it and move on and settle for a toxic environment. Because shrugging your shoulders in acceptance about it actually enables and encourages that toxic environment and nothing's gonna ever change. Instead... I want us to work at creating a safer less toxic environment where people get to walk around naked if they want to.

That's the direction I want us all to move in. Where we all end up naked, lol.

But I am admittedly asking for a lot.

originally posted by: Bluesma
Why not teach a girl to have someone with them, watching their back, in contexts and environments which are possibly dangerous?

Which is exactly what I said to do.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I just don't understand why anyone would insist so strongly that this is behavior we should encourage in young people. But whatever.

I don't know that anyone is recommending the type of behaviour that you are describing, but having known people who have engaged in such antic, they're usually consensual and everyone is having a great time, no disrespect felt by any party involved, and the majority of such events don't end in rape. People have different ways of expressing themselves, some are more comfortable with public nudity than others, and with extreme exhibitionism, some people just love to shock. I don't believe that any such behaviour, ever, under any circumstances, justifies rape. I most certainly do not believe that any of those people should be anything other than who they want to be, just because some random abhorrence might one day cross their paths and misread the signals because they were raised to believe that women don't know how to express themselves verbally. Scantily clad young women are not the problem and they should not be made to suffer a punishment because of something someone else may or may not be thinking.

What is so difficult in teaching boys and girls to respect and look after each other? To look for those qualities in others and give them greater value?

You keep returning to your very narrow experience of someone else thinking you had been raped, when in fact you had had a consensual but ill-judged sexual encounter with your ex. Your no, nos were playful resistence so he knew it was a one off?? Or whatever, that is not an example of rape. It is not similar to rape. It is not even vaguely related to rape. It is, in fact, irrelevant. To make any judgement of "date rapes" based upon that experience is not only naive but dangerously ignorant, but again, very much the reason that defence lawyers pick jurist just like you. To the juxtapose your little indiscretion with a scenario akin to Jodie Foster's Accused is just silly. Yes, all kinds of women, from all walks of life get raped. It is a crime without social barriers, but the same cannot be said for justice.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I taught my daughter that is a not a good idea. She doesn't do that. She also discourages her girlfriends from doing it, and explains what I did- this is a room of fifty drunk strangers- there is a high probability that one or more of them could be stupid, have confused and twisted ideas about women, or be simply a sadist.

And we could all get hit by a bus tomorrow. There is always every need to be vigilant, but should not have to extend to modifying your behaviour to meet the morality of people who naively and ignorantly believe that rapists select sexually aggressive victims.

originally posted by: Bluesma

WTF??? Are you unable to discuss something you disagree with without coming up with such slimy personal attacks???
MY sons have never done anything of the sort, and never would! I gave them the education I speak of- to know their impact on the world around and be careful with it. Most of my most troubling exchanges with young men have been online, they were in america, (and many of them here on ATS). There are some confused guys out there, growing up on porn and video game portrayals of women, and terribly maladapted to social life.

I was referring to where you state...

On the other hand, I explained to my daughter and my sons that sometimes people of their age are inexperienced and send off the wrong signals or lack understanding of their own power. Because someone else may be weak and not good at using that power is not an excuse for you to take advantage of that. (on either side)

Why would they even consider “taking advantage”?

I have discussed with many men their confusion about how women communicate non-verbally, versus verbally.
It is not rare for them to be confused! How often do women get upset when their partner doesn't "sense" what they needed or wanted, without being told explicitly?? "You should have just KNOWN... I shouldn't HAVE to tell you!"
-This, if done enough, makes for a man that tries to guess through the non-verbal expressions, what you want.

It doesn't seem fair to insist they read body language and subtle signs, then say those signs shouldn't be read.

Nobody is insisting that they read such signals. It is quite simple, if someone is in a vulnerable state, the first instinct of anyone, regardless of gender, should be to check that that person is alright, or in need of help and to ensure that they are safe, it should not be to take advantage of them. The signal seems clear to me.

What I was pointing to, is that I don't understand why you would give your children misleading advice, such as that dressing and acting in a sexually aggressive manner makes you more likely to be raped, when this is not the case, quite the opposite sometimes. What does such invalid information prepare them for? This is why I pointed out the narrowness of your perception, you are assuming the reason why some women get raped is because they get out of their depth. You assume that the person who commits the rape is the person being aroused by being "twerked". You examples are very specific, but they are not representative, certainly not in the case of your friend misreading your encounter with your ex. That experience and date rape are simply incomparable and it is facile to suggest otherwise.

a reply to: geezlouise

You've gone back to your old avatar! I had been meaning to compliment you on your new one and now I am too late!

It was lovely though - your own work?

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
If se, isn't a commodity, then how do you explain the world wide phenomenon of prostitution and sex slavery? Why is it such a lucrative industry?

Did I say that it wasn't used as a commodity? I don't believe that water is a commodity either, but my beliefs do not prevent it's sale.

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
Explain to me why men and women yearn for the love, affection, and pleasure that result from it. Why are there so many ritualistic pracrices for courtship across the entire world? Of course it is a comodity.

I do not consider love to be a tradeable commodity, no. I am an old romantic like that, it is only love if it is given freely...in my opinion.

a reply to: Anaana

I admittedly changed it back for this thread.

I'll change it back to the art again soon, lol. Thank you!

Yes, it's my art.

You're making some great points and I love you for it.

Let's just say there was a rapist that targeted women that wore a lot of red. Do we ban red from clothes because of one rapist?

Even though I disagree and I honestly don't believe that clothes have anything to do with any rape ever in the history of mankind, even if I was wrong and some rapists were so ovecome they couldn't control themselves because of "red" clothing... it still doesn't give grounds to ban all "red" clothing. Honestly wtf guys. It's not even about eliminating danger at that point because there are like 300 million people who would have to change their dress code (banning red) all because of a couple of a-holes? Does anyone else see how ridiculous that is? Like an elephant being scared of a mouse.

Sometimes I feel like law is like that a little and that's what I meant earlier when I said it sometimes
feels unfair. But in this case it would just be ridiculous and not even about eliminating danger.

Again even though I personally know that clothes have nothing to do with rape? That ted talks video about child abuse comes to mind; 100 people drink from one well and 98 of them get sick. Do you treat symptoms and fail to acknowledge the well water? Which equates to forcing 300 million people to ban red from their wardrobes. Or, you could go right to the source... and address the rapist head on(investigate the well water and make it safe for drinking). Etc. I think someone else here made that point actually.

Interesting responses, but I stand by what I've posted.

I've been a "DD" since I was 14, and from that time men have seen me as nothing more than a meatbag with enormous mammories. My mother and grandmother stressed that I must dress modestly to avoid attracting certain kinds of men.

What I learned is that no matter how modestly I dressed they always looked me in the tits.

We are meatbags who service the male of the species. My experience has not been otherwise. They all thought I was easy even though I dressed very modestly.

Men are programmed to conquer and breed. You'll never convince me otherwise.

a reply to: Restricted

It sounds like you are ashamed of your body and that is sad.

Yes men love boobs generally. Is it wrong?

As long as men are admiring your big boobs and not raping you, I don't see a negative in there at all. The negative is that you were taught by your family that men don't care about you and only care about your boobs. Now you spend your days looking for ways to reinforce that childhood lesson(like waiting for people to glance at your boobs). Which btw just because it was taught to you since you were a kid? It doesn't mean it's the only way the world is. Or that it's even correct.

Maybe we're biologically programmed to procreate and admire big boobs, and maybe thanks to big boobs we are all here. Maybe it is not a negative. And maybe if you gave people a chance after they have admired your big boobs with their eyes, maybe you would find out that people actually have a personality and are capable of caring. About you, AND your big boobs.

originally posted by: geezlouise
Yes men love boobs generally. Is it wrong?

No.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Honestly.

I like boobs so much that I draw them all the time. And I'm really female.

a reply to: geezlouise

Boobs are great. I'm bi, but of all the physical features two things draw my attention most, a nice set of tits and a winning smile.

In the end though personality is key:

I don't care how nice the rack if the personality is whack.

and,

I don't care how flat the chest if the personality is best.

Yay weird goofy rhyming fun

a reply to: Puppylove

Lol.

Yeah and it's like, if you don't want to be a big boob then like, offer people
something more than the size of your chest?

Offer people the chance to see you for more than your breast.

Become more than a boob.

But then you'd have to accept that people are capable of seeing beyond a boob. People will always look at and appreciate nice boobs, but people are also fully capable of appreciating more than that.

Oops.

originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
If se, isn't a commodity, then how do you explain the world wide phenomenon of prostitution and sex slavery? Why is it such a lucrative industry?

Did I say that it wasn't used as a commodity? I don't believe that water is a commodity either, but my beliefs do not prevent it's sale.

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
Explain to me why men and women yearn for the love, affection, and pleasure that result from it. Why are there so many ritualistic pracrices for courtship across the entire world? Of course it is a comodity.

I do not consider love to be a tradeable commodity, no. I am an old romantic like that, it is only love if it is given freely...in my opinion.

You said you don't believe it is a comodity. By definition it is. Water is too. In fact, water is specifically mentioned in Google's definition. We're arguing semantics, but just so were are on the same page (for the sake of communication).

Commodity - a useful or valuable thing, such as water or time. (Google)

Or Merriam-Webster's definition 2, 4, and 5. It could fit into it's first definition too depending on how you look at it.

Sex is a commodity. Plain and simple. Believe it or not

I do agree with you 100% that love is not a commodity. "I don't care too much for money. Money don't buy me love." Right? But, love is one aspect of sex that makes it valuable. Prostitution may or may not provide the illusion of love. Ergo, the illusion of love can indeed be a commodity. Still, I agree with you on that point.

But now we've completelt digressed from the point of this thread.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: geezlouise

Boobs are great. I'm bi, but of all the physical features two things draw my attention most, a nice set of tits and a winning smile.

In the end though personality is key:

I don't care how nice the rack if the personality is whack.

and,

I don't care how flat the chest if the personality is best.

Yay weird goofy rhyming fun

I'm not bi and I agree.

A nice chest is not essential to keeping my attention, it is what's inside that counts, because like you said if their whacked forgettaboutit.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

What a shame. Because while you can easily keep your money in your pocket? We cannot escape our bodies.

Except through death.

And I don't know about you but I wanna live.

And I don't want to just shrug my shoulders about it and move on and settle for a toxic environment. Because shrugging your shoulders in acceptance about it actually enables and encourages that toxic environment and nothing's gonna ever change. Instead... I want us to work at creating a safer less toxic environment where people get to walk around naked if they want to.

That's the direction I want us all to move in. Where we all end up naked, lol.

But I am admittedly asking for a lot.

I can easily put my money in my pocket like one can easily dress modestly. Both actions wisely reduce risk by reducing the temptation of the offender. I can and may still get beaten and robbed for my money by a different kind of theif like one can and may still be raped by a different kind of rapist. I'm still at risk of being robbed, but I'm not going to fuel his interest by leaving my money out for him to see.

It isn't a question of shrugging my shoulders in acceptance of evil actions. That's not what that is. I would argue that it is even more toxic to neglect safety and dilligence in response to a toxic environment. It certainly doesn't encourage evil actions to safeguard oneself. Of course, fight against rape mentality. Fight against theft and murder mentality too. However, not taking safety precautions is like riding into battle without armor. It's a dumb move.

Since rape in all its forms is a reality, I submit that we take numerous precautions. Modest clothing, personal defense (guns, tasers, mace, karate class), travel in groups, and whatever else. Whether it be rape or anything else... Face the world as it is, put on your armor, and ride into battle against it.

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

Have you read anything we've said?

But... fine, maybe you're right and while we're it why don't we ban boobs.

Especially the big boobs, they are TOO sexually inviting dag nabit and you're right we should take numerous precautions by teaching women to continue to be ashamed of having a body.

Ty and have a good day now.

originally posted by: Anaana
Which is exactly what I said to do.

So... if you agreed all this time, why the insults and claims of objection??

I don't believe that any such behaviour, ever, under any circumstances, justifies rape.

Either do I , as I said repeatedly.

Scantily clad young women are not the problem and they should not be made to suffer a punishment because of something someone else may or may not be thinking.

Please point to the person who suggested such a thing! That is horrendous!!!

You keep returning to your very narrow experience of someone else thinking you had been raped,

I did? I will look again, but it seems I described it one time, in one post, but on the other hand you have mentioned it multiple times... Is it that I keep returning to it, or you do?

that is not an example of rape.

Exactly, congratulations! Your continuuing focus paid off- you finally got what I was saying when I described that.
It is NOT rape, and yet certain people (in that case, the person counseling me was a feminist activist) prefer to use all kinds of manipulation and lies to up the stats and make men look even more evil, and women even more innocent.
In a black and white value system, this is what happens- victim-good/ victimizer-bad. No gray areas. You want to be good? Make sure you are victim.

I was not convinced to do so. But there are lots of young women and girls who embrace such counsel completely because it feel better to do so. And some men pay. (and NO it is far from being ALL cases, but it is one part of the reality)

On the other hand, I explained to my daughter and my sons that sometimes people of their age are inexperienced and send off the wrong signals or lack understanding of their own power. Because someone else may be weak and not good at using that power is not an excuse for you to take advantage of that. (on either side)

Why would they even consider “taking advantage”?

Because sometimes young people lack experience and understanding of themselves and other humans. They don't always recognize when power is being abused (by themself or another) It is a common phenomena. It is less likely to end up in unethical or disrespectful behavior if an adult informs them- as in the case of my kids.

Nobody is insisting that they read such signals.

Ask around, see how many men have been told by their female partners they should be able to pick up what is going on with her without her having to say it explicitly.

It is quite simple, if someone is in a vulnerable state, the first instinct of anyone, regardless of gender, should be to check that that person is alright, or in need of help and to ensure that they are safe

To a young man, who is not very familiar with the depth of female psychology, has been learning from porn stars and video games, seeing a an impressive woman up above him on the table dancing, laughing, shaking her breast and butt in mens faces, she might not look so "vulnerable". In fact, these days, young women will put on quite a show of being sexually liberated, and proud that their milk shakes bring the boys in the yard. This behavior does not immediately scream "vulnerable" "in need of help". To some young men used to seeing aggressive women in video games, there is not a bit of vulnerability there.

Does Miley Cyrus look vulnerable and in need of help on stage?
Miley Cyrus has body guards.


You have randomly decided to stick insults about my family members into your intellectual debate, and you don't even bother to say, sorry, I got a little carried away?

A. Nicholas Groth studies rape offenders, and has written extensively about his findings.
books.google.fr... 2fqCgC&redir_esc=y

He finds three main types:
The Anger Rapist
The Power Rapist
The Sadistic Rapist

The most common type in the United States is the Power Rapist.

To sum it up, I'll grab the descriptions from Wikipedia, though it is not the best source, it provides a simple summary
(I highly recommend the book)

Power Rapist
For these rapists, rape becomes a way to compensate for their underlying feelings of inadequacy and feeds their issues of mastery, control, strength, authority and capability. The intent of the power rapist is to assert their competency. The power rapist relies upon verbal threats, intimidation with a weapon, and only uses the amount of force necessary to subdue the victim.

The power rapist tends to have fantasies about rape and sexual conquests. They may believe that even though the victim initially resists them, that once they overpower their victim, the victim will eventually enjoy the rape. The rapist needs to believe that the victim enjoyed what was done to them, and they may even ask the victim to meet them for a date later.



Because this is only a fantasy, the rapist does not feel reassured for long by either his own performance or the victim's response. The rapist feels that he must find another victim, convinced that this victim will be "the right one".

Hence, their offenses may become repetitive and compulsive.

You seem to be trying to say that all rapes are committed by the Sadistic Rapist or the Anger Rapist, but that does not seem to be the case by people who study them. Though, yes, they exist, and yes, those types of rapes happen, and they should be acknowledged. But I do not see why that means we should close our eyes to the biggest type of rape that exists in the US.

Is it pure coincidence the highest rate of rape occurs amongst college students?

(so much for the arrogant statements about certain social classes like yours ... your kids didn't go to college???)


Boobs... yeah, the american equation of breasts with sex only is sickening to most of the world. That is something to deal with.

a reply to: geezlouiseyeah your brother has been spouting some old scool bull about dress codes rapist don't care and the main reason schools have dresscodes is because they get kick backs from uniform makers

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist

Since rape in all its forms is a reality, I submit that we take numerous precautions. Modest clothing.

In my time .... a long time ago admittedly We were taught that *mystery*

was a potent attraction, and to leave nothing to the imagination was foolhardy!


However these days there is (analogically) no journey the destination is plainly

there.


That being said 'modesty' is totally subjective .... a bare arm? bare wrists or

ankles? a bare back? neck and shoulders?


Surely one mans modesty is another's indecency

originally posted by: Edumakated
You dress like a hoe, you will get treated like one.

Im not saying that rape is ever justified, but if you go out in public looking like a two dollsr hooker, that is how you will be treated.

This goes in all walks of life. There is s reason for the saying "dress for success".

When i dressed like a corner thug, i got treated like one even though i was a nerd. I stoped dressing like a thug and surprise, i stopped being treated like one.

The only problem with that moronic statement is that women get raped a lot in Arabic countries where the dress code is somewhat between a tent and a black bin bag. How do you explain that?

Furthermore there are tribes right now on this world, where people still walk around almost naked, with bare breasts and they just get on with life without being raped.

These facts make a mockery out of your inane statement. All you prove is the warped mentality of some men that believe that you are 'allowed' to rape someone if YOU think they crossed some kind of line. Who determines these lines?
In saudi arabia, the line is probably showing a wrist. By your logic, their line is just as valid as someone saying that a boob tube and a mini skirt somehow ALLOW a man to rape this woman.

Yet a boob tune and a mini skirt is still dressed more than some women in certain African tribes, who don't get raped.

The only common denominator in rape cases isn't the clothes, it is always the rapist. Blaming pieces of cloth is just a cheap excuse for the inability to hold back and see women as human beings [regardless of what they are wearing].