Pro-Choice “Facts”: Fetal Development

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

She is a minor, so just like a lot of much smaller and less significant thing she can't do abortion is one of them.

14 year olds are not able to make this decision, so that leaves us, the adults to yell at each other.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I assume, this is where your concern about a drawn-out battle comes into play

Correct. Drawing it out, which as you said would be an assured occurrence in many instances, now shifts the percentage of late term abortions (which is 2% or less) to a much higher percentage. I see that as very problematic. Hell, I would think the pro-life people would agree with how problematic that is.

I still think that it is something that should be considered.

In fairness having a dialogue about it is consideration on my part.

Maybe even by creating a special court for it so that the wait to argue in front of a judge was much shorter.

I don't think it's poor reasoning on my part to not see this as a realistic solution. I'm not attempting to shoot the idea down, I was really only interested in fleshing out the logistics as I said. I'm curious only because I often hear the position that the guy should have equal (or some) say but I never really hear how that would actually happen.

So if your position is ultimately that it should be done, however it's done, then okay Thank you for your response. I was just hoping for more about the process. As it stands, I see the cons outweigh the pros.

a reply to: jimmyx

Yes Maam'

a reply to: seasonal

They are able to make that decision.

The question is whether they make the decision with a qualified medical professional or google.

a reply to: JesusXst

It doesnt take a rocket scientist

Well, yeah. Rockets have little to do with brain science.

to figgure out whether the unborn fetus or baby, is alive and conscious.

Okay. So how would you go about doing it?

It's human, it has nerve endings muscles etc.

It has them when it has them. It's called fetal development for a reason. It's a process of development. The point is, it takes time before the necessary neurological features have developed before consciousness can emerge. You would at the very least agree its not conscious at the moment of conception, right? If so, then you're acknowledging it's a matter of the time it takes to develop.

Not even a doctor could ever convince me otherwise.

So it's based on feelings, and not the evidence?

Is your fallacy the appeal to emotion and mine the appeal to authority?

a reply to: seasonal

Why would the fact of being conscious sentient matter?

Why does sentience matter in a discussion on what constitutes a 'person', and or how morality relates to sentience?

What we mean to be alive as a human surely means to be conscious. To be sentient. What do we lack when we are pronounced dead?

Our morality concerns itself with the suffering of others. If someone isn't capable of suffering then that's wholly relevant.

originally posted by: seasonal

No I would like to think that the 14 year old would be loved and the baby taken to term and adopted out to the thousands of loving couples that can't have one.

As ideal as this sounds, reality is different for the 'unwanted' (a horrible term, I know, but they are unwanted children). Here are the statistics from the UK, which are actually not as bad as some other countries but still sad:

Out of almost 70,000 children in care in 2015 only 7% were adopted ( LINK )

Children in care are five times more likely to end up doing crime (mostly drugs, deception and prostitution). ( LINK )

In 2013, 61% of girls and 75% of boys in custody were from a care background ( LINK )

Unfortunately sending kids to care is not ideal. Not all end up doing crime, but only a small minority seem to end up living a fulfilling/safe life.

This is one of the reasons I am pro-choice, there are already too many millions of unwanted children in the world, who live short lives of pain and neglect. And if I'm not the one who is going to be looking after those children, then it's not my place to tell the mother what to do with her pregnancy.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

They can make the decision but no abortion can be performed without an adults consent.

And a dr. is there to care about the body/physical aspects of a 14 yr old's dilemma.

The parents are there to care about the whole 14 year old's person. And consent is needed for a medical procedure.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

They can make the decision but no abortion can be performed without an adults consent.

And a dr. is there to care about the body/physical aspects of a 14 yr old's dilemma.

The parents are there to care about the whole 14 year old's person. And consent is needed for a medical procedure.

I agree with all of that. However once you remove the option of a safe abortion you remove all those safeguards.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

There are thousands of dementia patients that beg to differ.

What we mean to be alive as a human surely means to be conscious. To be sentient. What do we lack when we are pronounced dead?

If a baby is 2 weeks from reaching a predetermined set schedule it is somehow not human less human or not deserving of protection?

Suffering or not suffering precludes us with the guilt of take a life that is not yet capable of feeling or defending it's self?

a reply to: Agartha

ages?

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

It might as well have.

You can't assume all babies who are aborted, and in a gruesome disgusting vile way, in other words, non humane aren't somehow, Human. Yet, here you sit on your throne assuming the opposite to human nature. That just because they're not outside of their wombs, they can't feel anything? That's a hell of an assumption. We're talking human life.

originally posted by: seasonal

ages?

Of? kids in custody? kids adopted??

Adoption (first link): the big majority of kids adopted were aged 1 to 4 years old. Only 1% were aged 10-15 and none of the 16-18 were adopted.

Kids in custody (third link) were aged between 10 and 17.

a reply to: seasonal

There are thousands of dementia patients that beg to differ.

How does this relate to what I said? Someone with dementia has issues with consciousness, they are not void of it. That's not what I said at all.

Suffering or not suffering precludes us with the guilt of take a life

Of course it does. Do we feel guilt when we uproot garden vegetables? Do we feel guilt when we accidentally step on a dog's tail and hear it yell or whimper? What's the distinguishing difference if not sentience?

a reply to: Agartha I

f a 14 year old gives birth that the baby will be very young, and very desirable to the couples out there. And what I mean by desirable is that there would be multiple couples that would be able to care for the child in a way a 14 year old is yet able to do.

And yes older kids are not as desirable to the adopting public.

I find it interesting how all these religious groups, often Christian, wet themselves when it comes to pro-choice and children in general.



Yet, they support the heavy use of fossil fuels with does pollute our atmosphere, the "children" breath the air which can pollute their bodies. Furthermore, these "religious groups" whether overtly religious or through secret societies, also behind the scenes, manipulate the weather using climate engineering technology. This includes the very heavy use of chemtrails, these are substances sprayed from aircraft to modify local climate. These chemicals are often composed mostly of aluminium nano particles. These particles fall to earth, they get into our soil, into our water, into our food, and into our lungs.

Since babies and children are quite small, these chemicals can accumulate in their tissues and effect their development.

Chemtrails may be a factor in the dramatic rise of autism in children.

So when it comes to what is important to the power elite, the children are expendable. This is contradictory.

abortions were going on in this country along time before roe v wade.....we can always go back to the time where women and girls bled out, became sterile, or died from botched, unsafe abortions.....but that's exactly what the "anti" crowd wants to happen, they want these women and girls to suffer and/or die, if they have a illegal abortion.

a reply to: JesusXst

That just because they're not outside of their wombs, they can't feel anything?

I never once said that. Or even alluded to that. Instead of putting words in my mouth perhaps you could ask questions to better understand what I think. Is that asking too much?

I am saying that once you accept

1. It doesn't have a fully formed brain at the moment of conception

2. That consciousness arises from the brain

then it logically follows that it's a discussion of the time it takes in fetal development for it to reach the point of having the necessary neurological features.

I'm not saying that doesn't ever occur in the womb. I'm saying it's obviously not occurring right from the onset.

I'm against late term abortions because it falls within a window of time where the evidence seems to show the fetus is sentient. Prior to that critical point in development, i'm not against it being done.

a reply to: deloprator20000

Do you think that being Christian means that they don't have the same hopes that we stop polluting the very ecosystem we need to live?

I can't make that jump in your logic, if you have some source material I would like to see it. Or is it just a swipe at Christians?

Or is this all religions in general?

Because you could easily say that pro abortion people are Christian and are for the same life style we have now.

Jewish, Muslim, ...... same.

a reply to: seasonal

And what I mean by desirable is that there would be multiple couples that would be able to care for the child

It's not realistic to think there would be people available to adopt all the children that would need a family & home as a result of abortion being illegal. There is zero chance of this.

I say this as someone that helps run a care home that has taken in foster and adopted many.