Pro-Choice “Facts”: Fetal Development

a reply to: Arnie123

You're welcome--and I'm glad to see that people are actually thinking about it instead of immediately accepting or freaking out over my comment (although I'm sure the freakouts will ensue eventually).

I remember way back in the day--I was only 14--but my sister got pregnant accidentally and chose abortion (she was 16 at the time) without fully considering the effects that it would have, on her OR her boyfriend, whom she didn't tell about the abortion or pregnancy.

As things tend to go in life, he found out, and after the initial stage of anger, he was very hurt over it. Granted, they were boy exceptionally young at the time and keeping the baby would have been tough for them, but the simple fact that he didn't even know that he has sparked and life that was snuffed out before he could consider fighting to keep the child (by even just discussing with my sister) deeply affected him for the following few years that I knew him. It also was the issue that terminated their relationship.

This also deeply affected my sister, and even though this happened back in 1993, that decision still haunts her to this day and has negatively affected her self-esteem, feeling of self worth, and launched her into a downward spiral that culminated in her sleeping in some druggie's truck while ceasing communication with me and my family. Once she was found, she went into a girl's group home for a while, and she got her life relatively back on track, but still eats her feelings (literally and figuratively) and it has culminated in poor self-esteem, even at age 39. She has flat-out told me that it all stems from that abortion, and that she can't seem to forgive herself for it.

That's what opened my eyes and gave me the ability to see if from the perspective of the two other lives that it affected, plus my sister's. I just hope that sooner than later she can find the peace that she needs and can forgive herself.

And she's not the only person that I know who had a teenage abortion and has a lingering feeling of guilt over it, even decades later--all of whom thought that it wouldn't be that big of a deal at the time and that they were emotionally strong enough to handle it just fine.

These are the experiences from which I build the foundation of my concern about elective abortion--that, plus I consider the act to be murder, plain and simple, even if the current law does not agree.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

You say I have valid points in one breath and in the other it's poor excuse for reasoning.. wtf

because the father (if we wants to) should have some sort of say in the matter,

All I'm asking is how would this work out? Let's grant him that then. Can you address my questions / scenarios instead of just brushing them off as "poor excuse for reasoning"?

Let's give them equal say. Mother doesn't want an abortion. Father wants an abortion.

What's next? How do you see it playing out? That's all i'm asking.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

what if momma says she's afraid that the pregnancy will badly affect her health and daddy says she's imagining things again and will be fine and he get's the final say, only she was right and ends up dying....
are the men gonna accept the responsibility of that one, maybe face manslaughter charges??

if a man is going around dropping his sperm in a one night fling, does he really deserve the same amount of input when that seed takes root as someone who's been in a long term relationship or marriage? especially if the two don't even know each other's names or if once told the news, the next words out of his mouth are "It's not mine you whore"???
the longer the relationship goes, the more apt the two will be likely to sit down together and discuss it in a rational manner and many times, the women will give into the man's desires. but, in the end, it's the women who ends up having to deal with the unpleasant, sometimes dangerous, changes that occur in her body during a pregnancy.. not the man, so her desires should carry much more weight.

a reply to: zosimov

I don't think science has come far enough in the consciousness realm to make any definitive statements.

Far enough? Meaning there isn't discovery to be had? I didn't say that. Neuroscience isn't saying that. If discovery was over then we wouldn't need science.

However, acknowledging we don't understand everything ≠ we don't know a lot. Like I said, it's a growing field. We certainly don't know so little that we would say there isn't a relationship between the brain and consciousness, nor that certain regions of the brain play a large role in it.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

No I would like to think that the 14 year old would be loved and the baby taken to term and adopted out to the thousands of loving couples that can't have one.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Did you read the article? It's pretty fascinating.

a reply to: dawnstar

I think we are likely on the same page. Did you mean for that to be a reply to me?

If it's conscious and moving and behaving like a human then it's alive. It more than likely feels pain.

People still question this?

a reply to: seasonal

So how do you force her to go to term?

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

For one, I said that "the father should have some sort of say in the matter," not necessarily have the final say in the matter. What that means could be something as simple as the two of them having to discuss the matter with the doctor, together, or something as simple as just having the husband sign off on relinquishing say on the decision. But, at the very least, I do think that there needs to be a legal document of some sort that ensures that the father (if known...if not, the mother needs to sign an affidavit stating as much) knew about the impending procedure, whether or not he agreed with it.

This would satisfy my concerns a bit, although I'd love for there to be a legal way for the father to be able to challenge the abortion if he wholeheartedly disapproved of the procedure. And, I assume, this is where your concern about a drawn-out battle comes into play, and while I see that as a pretty assured occurrence in many instances, even being abused so that the pregnancy goes past the legal abortion term, I still think that it is something that should be considered. Maybe even by creating a special court for it so that the wait to argue in front of a judge was much shorter.

But, regardless, I'm not trying to spell out the perfect system for doing so--that's for litigious or legislative people more appropriately suited to the task. Like I said, it would just be nice if the father had to legally be given the courtesy of being informed prior to such a procedure so that the two people most directly affected by the decision have to at least discuss it. I see that simply as a common courtesy in what is considered to be a civilized society.

ETA:

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
You say I have valid points in one breath and in the other it's poor excuse for reasoning.. wtf

I must note that you can have good points, but that the points as a whole can be poor reasoning to keep something from happening just because the logistics may be difficult. The two ideas don't have to be mutually exclusive.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

NO force, only guidance and showing that the mistake was made is a serious one. And wiping a life out seems like a bad idea that she may very well regret for the rest of her life.

a reply to: JesusXst

If it's conscious...
...then it's alive.

If being the operative word. If the fetus is conscious...sentient. This is a matter of when. So we should place the timeframe for a legal abortion with what's congruent with the evidence.

a reply to: zosimov
I did. What I said aligns itself with what I think is your point. There is plenty of space for discovery still. Just like in other fields of science.

It's likely a critical distinction that this man wasn't always without all that brain mass. He lost it gradually through hydrocephalus. Sounds like it developed normally prenatally.

“It is hard for me [to say] exactly the percentage of reduction of the brain, since we did not use software to measure its volume. But visually, it is more than a 50 to 75 per cent reduction,” says Lionel Feuillet, a neurologist at the Mediterranean University in Marseille, France.

It appears the 90% number might have been sensationalist but it's still a very remarkable event for sure.

a reply to: Justso

I think the real problem is that this issue is always presented as "Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life". A more honest version would be "Pro-Choice vs Anti-Choice" and a separate "Pro-Birth vs Pro-Abortion" discussion. They're 2 completely different issues that are crammed together to get people to accept government control over women's bodies.

For example, I'm pro-choice but anti-abortion. I personally hate the concept of abortion and think we should solve the problems that lead to abortions in the first place. That would include zero-tolerance policies for rapes, free birth control for females (and equivalent policies for males), improved healthcare technologies so that deaths by childbirth become a figment of the past, improved social safety programs and domestic economies so that no parent can credibly say the child should be aborted because they can't provide for him/her, etc.

However, I don't trust Republicans or Democrats (or Greens or Libertarians) to decide when a woman should or shouldn't give birth. In fact, I think politicians in general should back off on women's health issues and let women and their doctors make those decisions. That's ironic because in theory I should be agreeing with the "small government" and "pro-freedom" crowd on this, but they seem to be throwing out those ideals in favor of government mandated restrictions on women.

I also wind up disagreeing with the supposed "Pro-Life" crowd on these issues because they aren't "pro-life" at all; they're strictly pro-birth. I fail to see how someone can claim to be "pro-life" yet proudly cut actual pro-life policies like food programs for the poor, healthcare for all, advanced public schools for all citizens, etc. It's like they demand the would-be-aborted child be born, but are ok with the child suffering in poverty.

a reply to: seasonal

So where does this leave the theoretical 14yr old girl?

If you're not forcing her to go to term and you're not allowing a safe abortion there's not many options for a child who doesn't want to be pregnant.

This is where my principles stand against both sides here.

Life is thoughts. thought starts with sensation, and sensation starts when ae earliest the central nervous system activiates / brain activity begins.

This happens around the 4-5 month time..but I would say no longer after 3 months should there be abortions unless it is an emergency (health of the mother is in jepordy / something went very wrong and the baby will be dead or severely disabled and living a tortured life).

Some argue life begins at conception. nope..life is not replicating cells, otherwise a tumor is precious. Life itself technically isnt even very sacred..its people who are. thought that is. we eat life daily..its when life becomes a person that it is important.

On the other end of the dumb scale is those demanding that unless a baby can survive on its own without help, it isn't to be considered...like somehow richard dawkens isn't a human.

I could do without either of these types of people around. zero thought or principles weighing in on big issues.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figgure out whether the unborn fetus or baby, is alive and conscious. It's human, it has nerve endings muscles etc. Not even a doctor could ever convince me otherwise.

Just saying

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: seasonal


Suppose you have a seed. Let's say, it is a large seed, an avocado seed that has some substance. Is that seed alive or dead while it is still in the avocado and perhaps even when unripened on the tree?


Pro-Choice is such arrogance. Nazism at its finest.

so you would rather have forced birth under penalty of law?......arrest the pregnant mother, arrest the abortion provider?......right, no authoritarian government control there....how far off-base in your thinking is that?

a reply to: SlapMonkey

But, regardless, I'm not trying to spell out the perfect system for doing so--that's for litigious or legislative people more appropriately suited to the task.

you mean like the crazy state lawmakers who come up with laws like this one???

Abortions defined as using instrument or medication with the intent to terminate a pregnancy (other than birth, to preserve a the baby’s live or remove dead fetus) are legal in South Carolina only under the following three circumstances:

In the first trimester with the pregnant woman’s consent
In the second trimester with the pregnant woman’s consent in a certified hospital or clinic
In the third trimester when necessary to preserve the life or health of the pregnant woman on the written recommendation of two doctors, and if the basis is mental health then both the two doctors and a consulting psychiatrist must agree in writing the abortion is necessary
Note this law says the husband’s consent is required in the third trimester, but spousal consent was found unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1976 and that can’t be enforced

statelaws.findlaw.com...

carefully read that law...
the first criteria that has to be met is that two doctors have to be willing to attest that a third trimester pregnancy is necessary for the life or health of the mother.....
but then... after that is accomplished....
the crazy lawmakers seem to think that instead of those doctors taking the actions needed to preserve the life or health of the mother, instead they should go searching for daddy, or may be in the hospital, but well, might be on a business trip in china or something....

as far as that 14 year old girl, has anyone bothered to raise up the issue that 14 year old kids are often times not yet mature enough physically to deliver full term babies without physical damage to their bodies?? heck no.

as far as all those poor couples out there waiting to adopt....

www.adoptuskids.org...

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy
Why would the fact of being conscious sentient matter?

originally posted by: JesusXst
a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figgure out whether the unborn fetus or baby, is alive and conscious. It's human, it has nerve endings muscles etc. Not even a doctor could ever convince me otherwise.

Just saying

you don't have the right to make decisions about what a woman does regarding her reproductive organs, if that's the case your making, every little boy should have his nut-sack tubes tied off until he and his wife want children. I suggest you volunteer immediately to show your commitment.