Utopian future will not work

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: HarryJoy

People who have billions in the bank would disagree. Money is more important to them than the goods themselves. It's about having the ability to have anything, rather than actually having.

How would people get qualified? Teachers? What if the teachers can't be bothered because they're getting just as much teaching as they are sitting at home?

Ok....I finally got a chance to stop for the day. .

In answer to your first point....I will agree with you. ...and yet the reality that even the billionaire realizes is.....all of that money sitting in the bank is only potential. Until it is spent it actually has no value at all ...and that is the sad truth that even the billionaire is haunted by.

As far as your second question...If I were charged with establishing utopia here...I would start with a clean slate. ..a raw piece of land. ...on that land I would construct an infrastructure that focused only on the necessities of life. Agriculture, textiles, forging /foundries, animal husbandry. Woodworking. Food preservation and preparation. And all training facilities necessary for such things. Etc.

I would focus on manual labor practices. Chopping down trees with axes and cross cut saws. Harvesting crops and gathering shocks of grain by hand...maximum interaction with the earth. Enclosed bikeways for transportation. ...a focus on the arts..particularly culinary...water wheels and steam engines for power....things that endure and impart a sense of security and permanence.

I know it all sounds like a throw back. ..But with a new twist...we are working for one another and not for profit. ...working to expand the infrastructure to assimilate more people. These are the best of motives....we have to know when things are as good as they can get. ..and we have to bring them back.

There are many more elements and aspects that could be discussed ....that are different then any previous society. ..But it is veering from the topic at hand.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
Utopia will never work and the answer to "Why?" is quite simple.

Motivation.

Motivation is what rules most people today. It's what rules most companies and governments too. Motivation is used to gain money and/or rewards.

Think about it this way.

If there's no currency/reward, who would do the "lower" jobs such as cleaning? Robots? Who will build the design, build and maintain said robots with no currency/reward? With no currency/reward, there is no motivation.

Look at it from a sci-if angle. Star Trek.

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

Think of it as being a child.

Your mum/dad wants you to do weekly chores (dishes, cleaning bedroom, taking trash out, etc.). If a kid gets asked to do them, normally they would refuse. Add a reward/currency and the child would be more motivated to do said chores.

Now, I know there are selfless people out there, so this isn't a "one size fits all" opinion piece. But realistically, the majority of us humans do things for rewards/currency. Take that away and you take motivation away.

And that's why I believe we will never have a utopian future.

WRONG! Guess what you have read this before on ATS......research first please. The idea of a "fixed state income without means testing" has been tried a few times and every time it has been shown that people DO NOT BECOME FECKLESS in fact the work "ethic" increases. I know that flies in the face of the beliefs of the right wingers but tough. The world is screwed and unless people throw away their entrenched dumb beliefs "The american dream" being a classic!!! we are doomed to continue with the growing majority becoming ever more poorer. I mean DUH! It's so fricking obvious.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Bone75
You still don't get it. That "arbitrary" number goes down every time we make a technological or systematic improvement that puts people out of work.

And it still does not lead to a utopian scenario where everyone is suddenly altruistic and willing to do tasks for no compensation.

Your compensation is life-long security. You'll never have to worry about going hungry or being homeless or not having enough tucked away for retirement.

Within a generation or two we could chip that work requirement down to nothing through automation. True freedom.

I 'd say a meritocracy would be the best ,based on WHAT ideals I don't know...

a reply to: yorkshirelad
So what you're saying is everybody would get paid the same amount, regardless of employment status and irrespective of their performance or occupation? And this has been tried and conclusively shown to be successful?

If it's conclusively proven, why're we not doing it?

Please provide a link to the studies or evidences you implied existed.

originally posted by: TerryDon79

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

That's only on the ship.

How is it different then our current military on a ship?

It seems to me there's something wrong with the current system. It seems wealth inequality becomes greater and greater every year as the middle class is driven deeper and deeper into poverty wages. We only have barely 3% growth in this country that's practically deflationary when you take into account population growth and worn out replacement purchases. I wish the system had some way to correct itself so everyone had more more to do more interesting things. The way it is now is really boring for the majority of people.

originally posted by: Bone75
Your compensation is life-long security. You'll never have to worry about going hungry or being homeless or not having enough tucked away for retirement.

I do not have to worry about that now.

All you are doing is creating some sort of socialistic work program which is no where near utopian.

Within a generation or two we could chip that work requirement down to nothing through automation. True freedom.

And unless there was something motivating people what is the point? Who the hell wants to live a vanilla existence just like 8,000,000,000 of your neighbors>?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Who the hell wants to live a vanilla existence just like 8,000,000,000 of your neighbors>?

Because nobody does that now?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Bone75
Your compensation is life-long security. You'll never have to worry about going hungry or being homeless or not having enough tucked away for retirement.

I do not have to worry about that now.

And like I said, you're drastically outnumbered.

And unless there was something motivating people what is the point? Who the hell wants to live a vanilla existence just like 8,000,000,000 of your neighbors>?

I'm going to estimate your age at 35 and ask you a serious question...

Would you shovel sh!t for the next 15 years if it meant that no one else in this country would ever have to shovel sh!t again? If it meant the end of homelessness, poverty, starvation?

I'd be the first in line to shovel that sh!t with a smile on my face and joy in my heart.

I probably wouldn't even have to do it until I'm 50 because the sh!t jobs are going to be the first ones we eliminate.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
My husband lacks motivation for cleaning. Trust me, his home office can become a hazard zone. I have stopped cleaning that room. It gets extremely disgusting and I have to just keep reminding myself not to enter. Eventually, he does find motivation to clean it himself. Why? His own reward is that he recognizes that it needs to be done. He always says that he wished he cleaned it sooner. He is always so proud of himself afterwards.

I know this seems silly...but seriously, all humans will step up and do the dirty jobs, if it will begin to have an adverse effect on them personally. They will be motivated by their want to enjoy this life and world...not for money/rewards.

originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: yorkshirelad
So what you're saying is everybody would get paid the same amount, regardless of employment status and irrespective of their performance or occupation? And this has been tried and conclusively shown to be successful?

If it's conclusively proven, why're we not doing it?

Please provide a link to the studies or evidences you implied existed.

I believe what Yorkshirelad is saying is that everyone gets the same minimum amount regardless of employment status/occupation/performance.

People would still be paid over and above this based on what they do.

a reply to: TerryDon79

I've been trying to see a long-term chart of the US economy over its full existence but have come up short. I do think that economic policy was utopian at some point in the US history, and that is the point where extreme poverty became all but erased in a short time-span.

Social policy peaked shortly after the civil rights act and that point would have possibly been the climax of the USA as a country.

Combine libertarian social policy with libertarian economic policy and you have all but a utopia. People can actually see something close to this in New Hampshire which is the only place I could stand living. Far from perfect, it does have a very strong economy and does have relatively few social problems. Not a utopia but people are quite well off there.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
Utopia will never work and the answer to "Why?" is quite simple.

Motivation.

Motivation is what rules most people today. It's what rules most companies and governments too. Motivation is used to gain money and/or rewards.

Think about it this way.

If there's no currency/reward, who would do the "lower" jobs such as cleaning? Robots? Who will build the design, build and maintain said robots with no currency/reward? With no currency/reward, there is no motivation.

Look at it from a sci-if angle. Star Trek.

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

Think of it as being a child.

Your mum/dad wants you to do weekly chores (dishes, cleaning bedroom, taking trash out, etc.). If a kid gets asked to do them, normally they would refuse. Add a reward/currency and the child would be more motivated to do said chores.

Now, I know there are selfless people out there, so this isn't a "one size fits all" opinion piece. But realistically, the majority of us humans do things for rewards/currency. Take that away and you take motivation away.

And that's why I believe we will never have a utopian future.

Well people need to be motivated to start a "utopia" in the first place, right? It's not like it will just fall out of the heavens like manna, right?
There's your first most obvious source of motivation.

Next motivation is just to not fail. It would likely be a fledgling fringe movement.

If that motivation milestone is passed, next is to make "utopia" better than mainstream.

If that milestone is passed, maybe the mainstream will want to get on board, and the motivation would become building more and more "utopias"

And if the whole world becomes utopia, then maybe you have to think of a new fringe movement to keep things in motion, and stay motivated.

Contrast this to our current money accord... How does money motivate you?

As it currently goes for me, money basically lets me coast through life, and I get bored, so I find forums to talk about "utopia"

This thread seems quite ironic.
What doesn't motivate me is said to be motivating.
What could motivate me is said to be not motivating.

a reply to: HarryJoy

That's all assuming humans will do more than they normally would for free. Most people won't do something big for a small reward, let alone something big for nothing.

a reply to: yorkshirelad

Please go back and read the OP. Nowhere have I mentioned "fixed rate income". Quite the opppsite really. No income for anyone.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
I 'd say a meritocracy would be the best ,based on WHAT ideals I don't know...

I've read quite a few compelling ideas on meritocracies. The idea is good, but I can see it being abused.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: TerryDon79

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

That's only on the ship.

How is it different then our current military on a ship?

It was a flawed analogy in hindsight.

Imagine the way the ship functions and upscale it to a whole planet (minus credits).

a reply to: fractal5

Go back 100 years and try and find what some people then thought utopia was. Then 200, 300 and so on. The idea changes as people change. There's not a single idea of utopia that everyone can agree on.

a reply to: InachMarbank

Not necessarily. People could be forced into a utopia through majority vote or some disaster that forces people to work together for a short time to save the planet.

There's quite a few utopia scenarios where it doesn't have to be mutually agreed on, but then you can argue (as I have) that then it's not utopia.