Utopian future will not work

Utopia will never work and the answer to "Why?" is quite simple.

Motivation.

Motivation is what rules most people today. It's what rules most companies and governments too. Motivation is used to gain money and/or rewards.

Think about it this way.

If there's no currency/reward, who would do the "lower" jobs such as cleaning? Robots? Who will build the design, build and maintain said robots with no currency/reward? With no currency/reward, there is no motivation.

Look at it from a sci-if angle. Star Trek.

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

Think of it as being a child.

Your mum/dad wants you to do weekly chores (dishes, cleaning bedroom, taking trash out, etc.). If a kid gets asked to do them, normally they would refuse. Add a reward/currency and the child would be more motivated to do said chores.

Now, I know there are selfless people out there, so this isn't a "one size fits all" opinion piece. But realistically, the majority of us humans do things for rewards/currency. Take that away and you take motivation away.

And that's why I believe we will never have a utopian future.

--so your utopia is people cleaning up after you?

That's why there will be no utopia.

originally posted by: WeowWix
--so your utopia is people cleaning up after you?

That's why there will be no utopia.

That was one example. I could have used fixing cars, cooking or a whole list of things. The premise is still the same. No reward/currency means no motivation.

The elite of society will run/own/guvern the utopia and they in turn will employ non elite to help them, just like today.

The non elite will live, eat, work for food/housing just as they do today but live among the high society.

Another way would be, poor and elite will live together to get things done, elite put up the money and the poor make it happen, both motivated to making said utopia nice for all.

a reply to: TerryDon79

I tend to agree with you on this. Even if the robots come along and did all my menial tasks which I currently perform; laundry, dusting, blood splatter clean up, etc. I would still need to have some rewarding activity to participate in such as gardening or painting otherwise the risk is fairly high that I would turn into a homicidal maniac.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: TerryDon79

...otherwise the risk is fairly high that I would turn into a homicidal maniac.

Turn into?

I think it's a bit late for that

originally posted by: TerryDon79

Look at it from a sci-if angle. Star Trek.

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

And yet, the Star Trek universe was a functional utopia in which people followed their passions and got jobs that fulfilled them and they worried not about whether or not it had a viable wage attached to it and were unencumbered by "want".

People are motivated by currency because they "want", if they want for nothing currency isn't necessary. There was a writer - can't remember his name, but he theorized that robots would take over all the menial jobs, even may of the less menial ones, really eliminate the majority of the work force and people could be put on permanent vacation. Humanity would be collectively bored for 3-4 weeks before beginning the search for their passions, for fulfilling activities.

In my personal experience, having been laid off a couple of times, this sounds about right. Those first 2-3 weeks feel like a vacation but afterwards, even without having to worry about how I was going to pay bills for another month or so, I was ready to do something with my time again.

It's not about being selfless, I think you give human beings very little credit after they've been beaten into conforming to a system for so long.

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: WeowWix
--so your utopia is people cleaning up after you?

That's why there will be no utopia.

That was one example. I could have used fixing cars, cooking or a whole list of things. The premise is still the same. No reward/currency means no motivation.

Self-fulfillment is the reason why anyone does /anything/. Including this post. If you don't think that would continue without currency, you need to dig deeper.

a reply to: DarkvsLight29

But that still involves rewards and/or currency. That means there's still motivation.

My whole point is, take money and rewards away in a utopia and you have no motivation. No motivation means nothing will get done. That in turn means there would be chaos.

Hardly a utopia.

originally posted by: eNumbra
And yet, the Star Trek universe was a functional utopia in which people followed their passions and got jobs that fulfilled them and they worried not about whether or not it had a viable wage attached to it and were unencumbered by "want".

Then why did they still have 'credits'?

That sissy pants Picard collected books which he obviously wanted. I am sure there are other examples of people wanting things in that fictional universe.

a reply to: eNumbra

Of course I give humanity very little credit. We're reward driven and have been for a very long time. We start with kids at a very young age and it carries in until we die.

a reply to: TerryDon79

You're probably right and I'll enjoy reading posts that argue otherwise. Subjects like this bring out the ATSers with insights that challenge preconceptions.

Perhaps an incentive in Utopia will be self-development, exploration and other more spiritual and intellectual challenges? There are millions of people who'd rise to that and exist happily in a Utopia. Scientists, artists and celebrity chefs.

We'd arguably have more resources for exploring local space without the tax haemorrhage of defence spending and wars. Presumably Utopia would be war free? That could generate a lot of motivation and reflect the incredibly 'itchy feet' that drove humans to always seek the next horizon.

Unfortunately humanity has also been dragging along the baggage of the lazy bastards who want 5 Star lifestyles with zero effort. In Paleo days, they'd have to work like everyone else or be left to die. The better society gets, the more it enables the deadwood. I can picture a Utopia having an underclass society that contributes nothing to the greater good. If that's the case, it ain't no 'Utopia' right?

originally posted by: WeowWix

originally posted by: TerryDon79

originally posted by: WeowWix
--so your utopia is people cleaning up after you?

That's why there will be no utopia.

That was one example. I could have used fixing cars, cooking or a whole list of things. The premise is still the same. No reward/currency means no motivation.

Self-fulfillment is the reason why anyone does /anything/. Including this post. If you don't think that would continue without currency, you need to dig deeper.

So how would you fulfil your self with no wants or needs?

Not everyone will be into gardening, reading, painting or anything else.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Good thread, I believe utopia could be possible if we as humans advance from a state of selfish work to a state of serving others (very rare). It would take maybe hundreds of years and wars and failed economies to reach such an advanced state.

So in an advanced civilization, it is possible since humanity as a whole acknowledged that helping others gives them far more joy than trying to make it while standing on each other's shoulders. So you would wash the dishes out of service to others, and not because you ought to get something from it.

We are nowhere near that stage at the moment.

a reply to: Kandinsky

There's the issue on the nose. Everyone can have everything. What then?

Yes, the scientists and discoverers will go on, but out of 7 billion, how many would it truly be, if there was no currency/rewards getting put in pockets? A couple of million? A few hundred thousand? A hundred?

a reply to: Shuye

That sounds way too much like everyone is a drone waiting to be of service to others.

In short, a very boring Utopia.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Sounds like what you are suggesting is that equality amongst our respective populations would equate to stagnant motivation.

And in today's society where we place so much value on meaningless technologies and self gratification you may be correct.

But if we were to somehow replace the current human paradigm with another more conducive to the concept of collective wealth as apposed to individual wealth, we could indeed bring about a future where the distribution of wealth, knowledge and education is rather more evenly spread.

To few haves and far to many have not's in today's world if you ask me.

a reply to: andy06shake

Pretty much agree, apart from the last part. That still involves currency/rewards.

We, as a group of humans on a planet, have always had the need for a hierarchy. This goes back as far as we can see. There's always been a leader and subordinates. The subs get better rewards (more food, better sleeping spot, etc.). Take away that basic human need and you're left with something else. A group of people who don't want or need, but also don't want to do anything.

a reply to: TerryDon79

We could have an 'opium den' class who prefer to stay intoxicated or a virtual reality sub-culture. It wouldn't have to be a value judgement if a few million chose to live their lives as non-contributors.

Otherwise, it's not a popular thing to say, but war and misery have played a major part in bringing us to where we are today. Disease, hunger and poverty snapping at our feet and the dream of contentment leading us on.

Taking all that away could be a short cut to a very short-lived Utopia.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: DarkvsLight29

But that still involves rewards and/or currency. That means there's still motivation.

My whole point is, take money and rewards away in a utopia and you have no motivation. No motivation means nothing will get done. That in turn means there would be chaos.

Hardly a utopia.

Yeah, guess your right.

That means a utopia will just be a survival exercise, who wins gets to live...Hunger Games.