Okay --- so WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS?

a reply to: TheRedneck

These are stereotypes. They do not represent actual educated, calm, thoughtful liberals.

Obama is a thoughtful, intelligent, educated liberal, and you should be proud that you voted for him. He has been the best president in 40 years.

Anyway - so - that's why the animosity. You are assuming to know what I think, or what liberals think.
I grew up in Kansas, a "free state". Right next to Missouri, the "we don't know really how we feel about the south" state. I have lived in multi-cultural, multi-ethnic towns - college towns - my entire life.

Were you not put out by the stereotypes of Trump voters? He himself said his vote base were "vicious" - and some of them were. Are there some pissy self-proclaimed "liberals"?

Yes, but desert, and Annee, and Spira (though she hasn't stopped by) and I are not like that. You are engaged in dialogue with some of the most educated, calm, forward-thinking, inclusive people on this entire site here. We are missing Krazyshot, theantedilluvian, and a few others for a complete round-table discussion of these issues.

Please do not lump the Obamas into the hysterical rioting idiots, or BLM, or OWS, or anyone else who is advocating violence or treason or some sort of overthrow.

We are "progressives" - we want things to continue to get better for EVERYONE. And finally, I take exception to your opinion and statement that there are millions of people who are "lazy" and don't "want to work when they can sit and watch tv". That is just not the case.

It is not true. Please do some level-headed research into the actual facts and statistics. As for immigrants - they pay more in taxes and contribute more to our economy than they are given credit for. They DO PAY TAXES. They DON'T GET FREE FOOD OR FREE MEDICAL CARE except from charities or 501c3s. The adults don't get benefits AT ALL - but the CHILDREN BORN HERE do.

And anyway, lots of them have left; the peak immigration was right around the turn of the century. Now the only ones coming here are too desperate to stay where they are (which was the case with the vast vast vast majority of them anyway).


So - sir, with all due respect, I think that you have absorbed some of the most rancid rhetoric from the most rancid of right-wing talking heads. Please do not believe them. Do some actual investigating, and you will find that the immigrants who are here are WORKING THEIR ASSES OFF, mostly for minimum wage OR LESS, with NO BENEFITS, NO GUARANTEED HOURS, and NO HELP.

Or, do you want to go pick stawberries? Apples? Have you ever visited a farm that houses migrant workers? They live in cinder-block, one-room apartments with bare walls and floors. They might as well be in a slum in India, except that here they at least have work and a roof.

That is why the "animosity". You are laboring under mistaken impressions of what is happening, and "what ails you."

As far as bathrooms, I couldn't care less. I've known transgender and homosexual people my entire life - they are not dangerous, or perverted. They respect the hetero "no thank you." They don't beat heteros to death, or shame them. They mind their own business except for an occasional parade, or dressing in a manner that clues you in.

Would you feel okay if you were forced to dress like a corporate drone with tassel shoes and a tie, when you want to be in boots, jeans, and a work-shirt? Well?

Why do they have to "hide" who they are because it upsets you?
Why do they have to pretend to be something they're not, when you aren't willing to do the same?

Do you see?
I acknowledge your gripes. I simply think the "blame" you hand out is entirely misplaced.

And you know that you have been less than respectful when I use words you pretend not to understand.
Dominionists - something you should absolutely look into.
Sycophants - look it up.

If I can look up "rubes" and "plebs" and the other rude terms used on here, if I can tolerate "libtard" and "Obummer" (BOTH OF WHICH ARE AGAINST T&C AND YOU OF ALL PEOPLE KNOW THAT!), then you can suck it up and learn about the people who are nervous as flack and disappointed that a loud-mouth liar is now our President-Elect.

Business moguls are not going to help you. Desert is right - and I'm disappointed that you have been unable to adjust your 'understanding' by this time.

I try to give you all a chance to state your case. I think we have more in common than you want to recognize, or dare to dream. Please do something to rectify that.

(As for the confederate flag, I don't really care about it, except that in my experience the "rednecks" who like to fly it don't even understand what it truly stands for).

Oh, and by the way, CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL, our activities are hastening the effects, and no amount of whining or denying that is going to change it. Manufacturing is not coming back, nor is there going to be a "wall," and your legislator "Sessions" is a dinosaur and a vindictive hater.

That's all.

CB328's thread about the Lies of the Right is an important one on here right now.

I forgot to mention him in the prior post. There are others, too; and to them I send all due respect, appreciation, and gratitude for bringing actual facts, decent sources, and intelligence to this site.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

These are stereotypes. They do not represent actual educated, calm, thoughtful liberals.

Very well; if you say they do not represent you, that's fair enough. I'm actually uncomfortable using the term "liberal," as I explained.

But they are not stereotypes. All those things I listed are actual events that really happened.

Obama is a thoughtful, intelligent, educated liberal, and you should be proud that you voted for him. He has been the best president in 40 years.

Really? Under Obama, the recession has continued unabated, corruption in government is rampant, relations with other countries are strained, food stamps need is at an all time high, health insurance rates and deductibles have skyrocketed, fuel costs doubled for the majority of his terms, attacks on Americans from terrorists have increased, ISIS has appeared and prospered, the Middle East situation has worsened, and our embassies have been successfully attacked.

We seem to have different definitions of what a President should accomplish.

Forgive me, but I have some errands to run. I will return and address the rest of your posts later.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Really? Under Obama, the recession has continued unabated,

No. It has not. Stocks are higher than they've ever been, unemployment is down, the housing market just returned to a pre-2008 level, and 20 million more people have health insurance now.

That is no way = "recession continued unabated." To say so is disingenuous (if not just ignorant).

corruption in government is rampant, relations with other countries are strained,

Corruptionj is always rampant. Do you really think Trump and his cronies are not "corrupt"?

food stamps need is at an all time high,

Please source this.

health insurance rates and deductibles have skyrocketed,

I still have health coverage, and it's not breaking us.

fuel costs doubled for the majority of his terms,

No.

I was working from mid 2004 until early 2006 as an itinerant home-visitor helping first-time parents learn to nurture and care for their babies.....fuel for my car at that time was OVER THREE DOLLARS A GALLON.

attacks on Americans from terrorists have increased,

American terrorists have attacked other Americans.

ISIS has appeared and prospered,

No. They are being driven out, and much of their upper command has been killed.

the Middle East situation has worsened,

Because that's what they do, and have done for 1500 years, and will continue to do....it has nothing to do with us.

and our embassies have been successfully attacked.

"Our embassies"? Which "embassies"? Benghazi? That is ONE EMBASSY IN A MORASS OF BARBARISM AND SAVAGERY.


So - again, please avail yourself of the actual facts, and try to take some deep breaths while you do it.
You are sorely mistaken on many (if not most) of your points.
Please.

New today:

Top coal exec to Trump: 'Temper' your coal job promises

President-elect Donald Trump has promised to "save" America's coal country and put long-suffering miners back to work.
But a top coal executive Robert Murray knows the daunting challenges facing his industry won't go away simply because Trump won.

"I've suggested to Mr. Trump that he temper his expectations," Murray told CNNMoney. The 76-year-old CEO of Murray Energy, the largest U.S. private coal miner, said he spoke to Trump about this issue both before and after the election.
Coal employment, Murray said, "can't be brought back to where it was before the election of Barack Obama."

COAL JOBS.

Not coming back. Need to change horses. Renewables are the future.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Progressivism is the only thing with enough force to take the controls and yank America back from the decades long spiral downward. It will not happen overnight, but it will start.

.....Spira will return after some needed time away BTW.....

After looking over the thread Did Trump Play His Supporters, it got me to thinking. Where have I heard that crap before.... where. I think we have been incorrect comparing Trump to Hitler and Mussolini. Hitler had written, not just read, books, and he had an ideology; Mussolin was in politics and served in the military and had an ideology. No, there is a homegrown figure who Trump is much closer to, although even that gentleman had experience in govt.

Here is a description of one of his appearances, and I will leave out the name, to see if anyone can guess.

Outside the arena shoving matches and fistfights broke out repeatedly as Birchers, Nazis, and Klansmen tussled with Trotskyists, Yippies, and Black Power activists … Rocks and soda bottles, from both sides, pelted the cops, who were trying, without much success, to keep order …
With the crowd inside at a fever pitch, the guest of honor arrived under the watchful eye of hundreds of police officers. [...........] was greeted with a sound so overwhelming that even the jaded political reporters who had seen and heard it all were momentarily stunned.
“It was uncontrolled release of frenzied, pulsating passion that seemed almost more sexual than political … It may have been the loudest, most terrifying sustained human din ever heard in New York,” wrote Robert Mayer in Newsday. “[.........] at MSG was the dark-side equivalent of the Beatles playing Shea Stadium.”

Then, with the traditional airing of grievances, the sermon began. [.........] fired broadsides against the “pseudo-intellectuals” and “theoreticians,” the “anarchists,” “the liberals and left wingers,” the “he” who looks like a “she,” and the professors and newspapers that “looked down their nose … at the average man on the street.”
His pledges to “let the police handle” the country’s rising crime problems and end the practice of “busing your children where they don’t want to be bused” were met with boisterous and sustained applause.
“All you need is a good barber!” he yelled at the dozens of hecklers in the crowd. “Why don’t you come down here … and I’ll autograph your sandals!” As yet another fight broke out in the balcony, [........] offered no quarter. “Well, you came for trouble and you got it!”

The Uncanny Similarities Between Trump Rallies Today and George Wallace Rallies in ’68

Yes, George Wallace is who came to mind. But Wallace ran with the ideology of the American Independent Party, and, although a showman, like Trump, he meant what he said. And guess what, the AIP this year chose Donald Trump to be their nominee.

What I am getting at here is that Donald Trump had no ideology going into the campaign, but has emerged (with his cabinet and staffing picks) as Pres-elect with the economic ideology of the Koch bros, the social ideology of Breitbart/Wallace, and with an aggressive defense posture.

That is what we will be up against. We can certainly agree with POTUS Trump if he has something on which we can agree. Otherwise, going forward will not be politics as usual, because we are so far apart politically. It may well get ugly and nasty, but the opposition must happen. Because we have a de facto parliamentary system, we have no option other than to oppose.

a reply to: desert

What I am getting at here is that Donald Trump had no ideology going into the campaign, but has emerged (with his cabinet and staffing picks) as Pres-elect with the economic ideology of the Koch bros, the social ideology of Breitbart/Wallace, and with an aggressive defense posture.

Major big heavy sigh.

sigh

yes. God help us.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Coal workers demand action

Now that Trump has won, coal workers around the country have sent an SOS to the president-elect to quickly stem the bleeding.

Hundreds of coal workers sent an open letter on Thursday to Trump demanding "action that will bring relief to coal communities."

Specifically, the coal workers called for legislation to protect miners' health and retirement benefits and to pay for the retraining of workers.

The coal workers also called out coal CEOs and execs for continuing to "reap multi-million dollar bonuses" even while slashing jobs and proposing cuts to pensions.

Harlan County?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Holy moley, Buzzy! Here's a link to that open letter mentioned in the article. Right now, I have tears in my eyes and am shaking with disbelief!

As you take action to revitalize the coal industry, we urge you and Congressman Zinke to do everything possible to hold true to your promise on the campaign trail that you are beholden to “no special interest. My only interest is you, the American people.”

Open Letter to President-Elect Donald Trump from coal miners

I hope to God these miners and their families are not forgotten or ignored. I hope to God Trump doesn't let them down.

A few years ago, a mine in Calif had a labor dispute.

Hard-Fought Victory for Locked-Out Borax Miners

A four-month labor dispute in the Mojave desert town of Boron, Calif., has ended with a victory for 570 RioTinto Borax miners who were locked out of the Rio Tinto mining facility for 107 days.

After battling Rio Tinto, one of the world’s largest mining companies, in what many called a “David vs. Goliath” fight, the miners emerged from negotiations Saturday May 15 with “a fair contract,” said Chuck Kennedy, recording secretary for the International Longshore and Warehouse Union Local 30 negotiating team.

Rio Tinto is a multinational company. It's original owner was Pacific Coast Borax Company, of twenty-mule team fame. The miners were not pushovers.

Ok, The Donald, we will see how you help these coal miners as you "temper your expectations".

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

No. It has not. Stocks are higher than they've ever been, unemployment is down, the housing market just returned to a pre-2008 level, and 20 million more people have health insurance now.

Not everyone's income is tied to the stock market, Buzzy. If you want to talk about how the already-wealthy have done, sure, things are wonderful. But in between New York and Los Angeles, there are a lot of people who would disagree with every single word you just posted.

I got back with full intent to continue the conversation with you. Desert and I have had a very pleasurable discussion and have found plenty of common ground to build upon. That doesn't seem possible with you. You can't seem to even understand that people are in pain after the last few decades.

In the vernacular of this thread... Thanks for playing.

TheRedneck

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Hey Buzzy. So much to say

Are there some pissy self-proclaimed "liberals"?

Well, to be fair - I am a self proclaimed liberal. I'm preferring progressive these days. Humanist is my favorite :-)

It's funny though. I'm not all one way or another,but feel a little forced to label myself - if you know what I mean?

Gotta love labels - I'm not sure Americans can even have a conversation without them these days

So, self proclaimed - and seriously pissy!

I'm not really inclined to forgive some people lately for not calling out their own - as in ever. Keeping in mind that the left is pretty much eating it's own kin these days, it would seem like rational folk everywhere should be able to see as plain as day that this country is dissolving and that it was a team effort. It's hard not to notice

I don't really credit very many on the right with the gift of self reflection, self criticism or self recrimination. The honest truth is, we're in a real bad place these days, and there's plenty of blame to go around

So, yes - thank you Buzzy. I do try :-)

However, my fall from grace came a few weeks ago. I couldn't care less about making nice with nimrods and the arrogantly, belligerently willfully ignorant

I'm putting all my energy into talking to people (left, right and center) that actually see what's happening, understand that it will take all of us working together to save our precious system and country - then are honest enough to recognize that this can't be about sides anymore

My president - Obama - is too good for the ones who believe that they are blameless

Don't care who hears me say it

Was here dropping in on a friend just for tonight - I'm back on hiatus tomorrow :-)

Excellent thread - see you in a couple of months

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Oh, and by the way, CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL,

Duh.

our activities are hastening the effects,

By maybe 0.001% or something.

and no amount of whining or denying that is going to change it.

You could try reality...

Manufacturing is not coming back, nor is there going to be a "wall," and your legislator "Sessions" is a dinosaur and a vindictive hater.

Keep that optimism. It's precious.

a reply to: desert

Progressivism is the only thing with enough force to take the controls and yank America back from the decades long spiral downward. It will not happen overnight, but it will start.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step

I think the not so reactionary conservatives can be progressive too. But - I might also be delusional

Off to my den desert. I'll be back in a couple months if I don't see my shadow :-)

The next step is to Make America Great Again by reversing the "progressive" agenda. The "progressive" agenda was never about progress. It originated with the Soviet Unions KGB and its aim was to destroy American values, liberty, success, enterprise, individuality and creativity with bland communistoid hive-minded programming and politically correct pampering of the spiteful.

Thank goodness: Trump’s tweets now come with a fact-check and context

Will his supporters accept the fact-checking, though?

I hope so. It's a start.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Not everyone's income is tied to the stock market

One thing that is troubling is that since the 1980s workers have made concessions to lower wages and to moving their retirement benefits into 401k's, which for most of them means starting out by pumping money into Wall Street as an assurance for their future retirement income. The Koch ideology effort to do away with Social Security has meant that the 401k will be their income, if they are able to retire. Only the wealthy can afford to lose in the Wall Street Casino.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Will his supporters accept the fact-checking, though?

His hardcore followers will not. In a post truth society, their leader doesn't accept facts, why would they? There is also the case of codependency.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I think the not so reactionary conservatives can be progressive too.

Considering that it was a Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, who took the Progressive Movement to a national level, I don't see why not.

And it's a former Republican, Democratic Senator Liz Warren, who listed 11 tenets for today's Progressives. There would be areas for agreement and working together.

"We believe that Wall Street needs stronger rules and tougher enforcement, and we're willing to fight for it." -

"We believe in science, and that means that we have a responsibility to protect this Earth." -

"We believe that the Internet shouldn't be rigged to benefit big corporations, and that means real net neutrality." -

"We believe that no one should work full-time and still live in poverty, and that means raising the minimum wage." -

"We believe that fast-food workers deserve a livable wage, and that means that when they take to the picket line, we are proud to fight alongside them." -

"We believe that students are entitled to get an education without being crushed by debt." -

"We believe that after a lifetime of work, people are entitled to retire with dignity, and that means protecting Social Security, Medicare, and pensions." -

"We believe — I can't believe I have to say this in 2014 — we believe in equal pay for equal work." -

"We believe that equal means equal, and that's true in marriage, it's true in the workplace, it's true in all of America." -

"We believe that immigration has made this country strong and vibrant, and that means reform." -

"And we believe that corporations are not people, that women have a right to their bodies. We will overturn Hobby Lobby and we will fight for it. We will fight for it!"

a reply to: desert

Considering that it was a Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, who took the Progressive Movement to a national level, I don't see why not.

And it's a former Republican, Democratic Senator Liz Warren, who listed 11 tenets for today's Progressives. There would be areas for agreement and working together.

Awww, Ms. Lizbeth...

So I'm not delusional? :-)

I do think that there's a change in thinking happening. I can see it everywhere in the media and with some politicians, with the way certain people are changing their tune in public. I guess once you see the part you played in tearing down your own home, all the glitz and money of division as showbiz begins to scare the peehoodlies out of a person

It's not just him either. Country first. This sort of thing takes time to catch fire - but it can happen. It was hard - the way we had to get to this place though

Desert - I keep getting turned around in here and ending up back in the lounge. Can you point out the exit please? :-)

Ciao for now