Dutch Investigators Give Results of MH17 Probe to Families

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Velatropa24

1) Russian missiles are used by other countries all over the world.

MH-17 was not flying " all over the world" when it was shot down, it was flying over Ukraine.

2) the people of Donbass and fashism not only have nothing in common, but are mutually exclusive terms, which can not be said for official Ukraine.

That will come as a surprise to the Donbass Narodny (Volkische/Racial) Republic:

Perhaps you just need to read up on what Fascism is:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And what sort of political parties Russia supports:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So on this point, you are either very brainwashed/confused, or are deliberately lying and twisting the facts. I don't know which is worse.

Since you are either brainwashed or lying, you tell me.

3) "could easily have been mistaken" is a possibility, not a fact. Usually responsibility/blame is based on "fact" not a "possibility".

No, it is based on evidence and reason, both of which strongly support the possibility.

1) Flying over Ukraine, not Russia.
2) What has Berkut got to do with fashism?
3) That picture of random people (probably Right sector of Ukraine) zigging is supposed to prove that Donbass is fashist? (Based on logic (or lack of) like that I am not the least bit surprised that people like you blindly accept lies)
4) "based on evidence and reason" - what evidence? I have been asking for it this whole thread and am yet to see it. WHAT EVIDENCE?

***ATTENTION***

Thread is being reopened. Knock off the back and forth, and stick to the topic. If this continues, posting bans will be handed out.

Do not reply to this thread.

a reply to: DJW001

the sleuthing of Bellingcat

You mean the sleuthhat Bellingcat? That disinfo agent didn't get 19 mil and a little visit from the dutch investigators, only lots of bad critics for mainly good reasons. No! Yes! Duh!

And where is the context for your two pictures with weird folks? This is your reasoning and the sort of evidence you just mentioned? Bellingcat and pictures without any context or source?

Donbass Narodny (Volkische/Racial) Republic

And every nation is full of nationalists? Look... I don't know what you are getting at here, the Minsk agreement is obviously not something you hold in high esteem. Pity, now guess who won't demand full transparency to scrutinize all the evidence from this investigation and chose to believe instead.

Or in your words: you're drunk, go home!

a reply to: Velatropa24

1) Flying over Ukraine, not Russia.

Correct; Eastern Ukraine is a client state of Russia. The plane was shot down byRussian clients and the evidence provided by the investigation committee suggests that the Russians thought better of letting their clients have such dangerous toys, so they moved the missiles back across the border.

2) What has Berkut got to do with fashism?

The Berkut were Ukraine's equivalent of the SS, firing upon peaceful protesters and helping Russian agitators instigate riots. After Yanukovych fled, the Berkut was officially disbanded, but its members fled to Donbass and Crimea to reinforce the rebels and Russian "volunteers," now known to be Russian Speznaz (special forces). You can read about them and their racist, anti-Semitic views on their own webpage, Here is an example of their "humor."



vk.com...

I assume that I don't need to translate for you. (For English speakers, the caption reads: "Ukrainian Nationalists." Funny how the domestic propaganda portrays the leadership in Kyiv as Jewish-- and much of it is-- whereas the propaganda for international distribution portrays them as Nazis.) Perhaps the problem is that you don't understand what Fascism is. This might help:

Fascism: What It Is, What It Isn't, And How To Spot It

This might also be an eye opener for you.

And this.

3) That picture of random people (probably Right sector of Ukraine) zigging is supposed to prove that Donbass is fashist? (Based on logic (or lack of) like that I am not the least bit surprised that people like you blindly accept lies)

No, that picture is supposed to prove that the leaders of the Dombass Narodnaya* Republic are honest to goodness Neo-Nazis. The source for that photograph:

vk.com...

(You will have to scroll back about two years.) If you cannot believe the Donbass Narodnaya Republic, who can you believe?

4) "based on evidence and reason" - what evidence? I have been asking for it this whole thread and am yet to see it. WHAT EVIDENCE?

You act as though you and other ATS members have no memory. This issue has been thoroughly investigated here. Every scrap of evidence has been analyzed, discussed, and debated. Russia's claims have consistently been shown to be contradictory, false, misleading, or just plain ridiculous. Please feel free to go back and review the evidence for yourself:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There are many, many more such threads. Why do you seem unable to remember them?

Just to refresh your memory, here is an example of the Russian disinformation that Putinistas are expected to swallow:



The Russian strategy has simply been to sow confusion so that their agents can raise seemingly plausible objections to any results from serious investigations. What about the planes? What about the control tower witness? Etc, etc, etc.

* I leave narodni untranslated because its usual translation, "people," does not convey the correct connotation. "People" conveys a sense of democracy and egalitarianism that is absent from narodni, which implies cultural and, therefore ethnic unity.

a reply to: DJW001

I also saw yesterday that RT published an article complaining the investigation wasn't an independent Tribunal instead. Last time I checked the reason the wasn't an independent Tribunal is because Russia vetoed it. But RT has never been one to let facts get in the way.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Velatropa24

1) Flying over Ukraine, not Russia.

Correct; Eastern Ukraine is a client state of Russia. The plane was shot down byRussian clients and the evidence provided by the investigation committee suggests that the Russians thought better of letting their clients have such dangerous toys, so they moved the missiles back across the border.

2) What has Berkut got to do with fashism?

The Berkut were Ukraine's equivalent of the SS, firing upon peaceful protesters and helping Russian agitators instigate riots. After Yanukovych fled, the Berkut was officially disbanded, but its members fled to Donbass and Crimea to reinforce the rebels and Russian "volunteers," now known to be Russian Speznaz (special forces). You can read about them and their racist, anti-Semitic views on their own webpage, Here is an example of their "humor."

vk.com...

I assume that I don't need to translate for you. (For English speakers, the caption reads: "Ukrainian Nationalists." Funny how the domestic propaganda portrays the leadership in Kyiv as Jewish-- and much of it is-- whereas the propaganda for international distribution portrays them as Nazis.) Perhaps the problem is that you don't understand what Fascism is. This might help:

Fascism: What It Is, What It Isn't, And How To Spot It

This might also be an eye opener for you.

And this.

3) That picture of random people (probably Right sector of Ukraine) zigging is supposed to prove that Donbass is fashist? (Based on logic (or lack of) like that I am not the least bit surprised that people like you blindly accept lies)

No, that picture is supposed to prove that the leaders of the Dombass Narodnaya* Republic are honest to goodness Neo-Nazis. The source for that photograph:

vk.com...

(You will have to scroll back about two years.) If you cannot believe the Donbass Narodnaya Republic, who can you believe?

4) "based on evidence and reason" - what evidence? I have been asking for it this whole thread and am yet to see it. WHAT EVIDENCE?

You act as though you and other ATS members have no memory. This issue has been thoroughly investigated here. Every scrap of evidence has been analyzed, discussed, and debated. Russia's claims have consistently been shown to be contradictory, false, misleading, or just plain ridiculous. Please feel free to go back and review the evidence for yourself:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There are many, many more such threads. Why do you seem unable to remember them?

Just to refresh your memory, here is an example of the Russian disinformation that Putinistas are expected to swallow:

The Russian strategy has simply been to sow confusion so that their agents can raise seemingly plausible objections to any results from serious investigations. What about the planes? What about the control tower witness? Etc, etc, etc.

* I leave narodni untranslated because its usual translation, "people," does not convey the correct connotation. "People" conveys a sense of democracy and egalitarianism that is absent from narodni, which implies cultural and, therefore ethnic unity.

...So any anti riot police (such as SWAT) working for any government is fashist then - gotha...

This is an example of logic of people like you right there - provide a pseudo-fact to paint a certain picture that supports your point of view, while ignoring other legitimite facts that contradict it.

So - a group (Berkut) which consists of no more then a few dosen people fled to Donbass. Weather this group is fashist or not is another discussion, they are not, but lets say they are for argument's sake. That group of no more then a few dosen people, then paints a whole state of Donbass as a fashist state in your view? Continuing that logic, Syrian refugees that fled the fighting and entered Europe, now make Germany a pro-Assadist or Pro-rebel state?

...and that's all the while the following information is ignored:

1) who is right sector?
2) what was their role in the overthrow?
3) what is the range of there current activities
4) what is there syboligy?
5) who are the new Ukrain's national heroes?
6) what events of history do they celebrate?
7) what version of history do they teach kids at dchool officially?
8) who are their monuments dedicated to?
9) who do they name their streets, parks and even cities after?

Trying to paint black as white and white as black here? Or lies dressed as truth?

Now - I have still not seen any EVIDENCE. A fake picture of a plane, has been ruled out as legitimate EVIDENCE for good reason. Ruling out unusable evidence is not the same as probiding a usible one. Not one thread, or anything said in the presentation or this topic constitutes any LEGITIMATE EVIDENCE that proves that Russia is behind the attack. Please keep that in mind to avoid the "back and forth" the mod described in his warning. 1 bit of legitimate , unquestionable evidence which exists and i can see (not storeys about some one having evidence which i am supposed to believe) that PROVES beyond reasonable doubt that Russia is behind the attack.

Narodnaya respublika - translates as just that - People's Republic. Funny how a non Russian is trying to teach a Russian speaker how to speak Russian.

a reply to: Velatropa24

So even after being presented information you insist on this circular argument of claiming there is no evidence, being shown evidence and you again claiming there is no evidence.

Specifically what "evidence" standard are you using and want to see?

One would think the constant ever changing lie induced stories from Russia on the topic would speak for itself but apparently not.

So tell us - whats evidence to you?

He isnt trying to tell you how to speak Russian and he clearly states why he didnt translate it. Peoples Republic gives the impression, a false one, that democracy is somehow associated with the term when in fact its anything but.

Like the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea, Peoples Republic of China and the Islamic Republic of Iran. They use a term in a manner inconsistent with its definition.

a reply to: Velatropa24

Nice attempt at deflection. They probably haven't told you in Russia, but Right Sector no longer exists. It was probably an FSB front, as you would know if you read any of the links I provided. Why are you claiming you have seen no evidence when I have provided links to threads that discuss it?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Velatropa24

Nice attempt at deflection. They probably haven't told you in Russia, but Right Sector no longer exists. It was probably an FSB front, as you would know if you read any of the links I provided. Why are you claiming you have seen no evidence when I have provided links to threads that discuss it?

Look - i have described very specificaly - infact 100% specific what I asked you for. I have not seen it yet.

For example, if there is a case of rape - a rapist is convicted based on specific evidence (semen found inside the voctim confirmed by DNA analysis.

I am waiting for it.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

So even after being presented information you insist on this circular argument of claiming there is no evidence, being shown evidence and you again claiming there is no evidence.

Specifically what "evidence" standard are you using and want to see?

One would think the constant ever changing lie induced stories from Russia on the topic would speak for itself but apparently not.

So tell us - whats evidence to you?

He isnt trying to tell you how to speak Russian and he clearly states why he didnt translate it. Peoples Republic gives the impression, a false one, that democracy is somehow associated with the term when in fact its anything but.

Like the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea, Peoples Republic of China and the Islamic Republic of Iran. They use a term in a manner inconsistent with its definition.

With his incorrect translation he is trying to imply that the 'peoples republic' is somehow related to fashism. That was the original intent. Once again non-legitimate reason to approve a certain point of view.

a reply to: Velatropa24

With his incorrect translation he is trying to imply that the 'peoples republic' is somehow related to fashism. That was the original intent. Once again non-legitimate reason to approve a certain point of view.

As a Russian speaker, you know the difference between люди, people, and народ, folk. Narod implies ethnic nationalism, which is usually a pretty good predictor of Fascist leanings. You might find this interesting.

a reply to: Velatropa24

Look - i have described very specificaly - infact 100% specific what I asked you for. I have not seen it yet.

For example, if there is a case of rape - a rapist is convicted based on specific evidence (semen found inside the voctim confirmed by DNA analysis.

I am waiting for it.

You have given yourself the perfect out: even DNA testing has proven to be fallible. There is no evidence that can be presented that you cannot reject for one reason or another. All we can do is present evidence in the hopes that unbiased people will see it for what it is worth and draw their own conclusions.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Velatropa24

With his incorrect translation he is trying to imply that the 'peoples republic' is somehow related to fashism. That was the original intent. Once again non-legitimate reason to approve a certain point of view.

As a Russian speaker, you know the difference between люди, people, and народ, folk. Narod implies ethnic nationalism, which is usually a pretty good predictor of Fascist leanings. You might find this interesting.

Look, stick to english man. As a Russian speaker - I tell you (and if you don't believe me ask another) that народная республика translates very specifically to "people's republic" - presuming that the people are in control of the government (not the other way around). Attempts to tie it to fashism have no perspective whatsoever here. Thanks for the (incorrect) lesson in Russsian, but you need to realize - if you for example work as a lawyer, you don't go and argue about measurements of atomic mass with a nuclear physisist.

As far as "люди" - there is no way to correctly tie the term to republic in Russian.

a reply to: Velatropa24

I will agree with you. As of now the JIT has proved nothing. They have simply given an interim report that updates the public on their current findings. However, based on the investigation so far their findings put the BUK in separatist held territory. That said as of noise Russia and the separatists are innocent. At least until this goes to court.

Now I know that you have an issue with the evidence provided. However we do have at least one indisputable fact. Russia and the separatists have only provided the public with lies and misinformation throughout this investigation. Don't you think those actions add a little credence to the claims of the JIT?

I also see you referring to this as a false flag. Yet you haven't provided a single piece of evidence to support this claim. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to pass judgement on those condemning Russia based on, what you consider, shoddy evidence while condemning the West based on zero evidence that had been presented?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Velatropa24

Look - i have described very specificaly - infact 100% specific what I asked you for. I have not seen it yet.

For example, if there is a case of rape - a rapist is convicted based on specific evidence (semen found inside the voctim confirmed by DNA analysis.

I am waiting for it.

You have given yourself the perfect out: even DNA testing has proven to be fallible. There is no evidence that can be presented that you cannot reject for one reason or another. All we can do is present evidence in the hopes that unbiased people will see it for what it is worth and draw their own conclusions.

Which brings me to my next point - you have no moral right to place blame on anyone because you simply don't know.

You can say - "I suspect that Russia is behind it based on the information I've been fed by the media", but not much else.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Velatropa24

I will agree with you. As of now the JIT has proved nothing. They have simply given an interim report that updates the public on their current findings. However, based on the investigation so far their findings put the BUK in separatist held territory. That said as of noise Russia and the separatists are innocent. At least until this goes to court.

Now I know that you have an issue with the evidence provided. However we do have at least one indisputable fact. Russia and the separatists have only provided the public with lies and misinformation throughout this investigation. Don't you think those actions add a little credence to the claims of the JIT?

I also see you referring to this as a false flag. Yet you haven't provided a single piece of evidence to support this claim. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to pass judgement on those condemning Russia based on, what you consider, shoddy evidence while condemning the West based on zero evidence that had been presented?

Good, we have progress. As far as buk - russian territory - no legitimate evidence provided yet. Also, they will need to prove the authenticity of the phone conversations the base their case on. Because SBU had every reason and the means to fake it.

If JIT can legitimize the evidence beyond reasonable doubt - I will say that I am wrong.

a reply to: Velatropa24

Unfortunately it looks like it will be a while before the full story comes out and the families of the victims get justice. Based off the interim report the JIT have been allowed to continue their investigation until January of 2018.

They are currently looking for anyone who might have information regarding the two people in the phone conversations. It also sounds like at least on separatist has come forward as a witness and they're hoping that more will come forward following the interim report.

Even once the investigation is completed they will still need to find a venue for the case to be tried. And then even then there will be almost four years of evidence that will need to be presented by both sides. Throw in the fact that this will also be a highly politicized affair. I have a feeling that we won't see a final report until at least 2020 if not much later.

Apparently in an effort to add "credibility" to the Russian argument they made a point of using a German to make their case.

Blame and Bias: MH17 Plane Crash Investigation's Goal is 'to Discredit Russia

Speaking to the television channel BBC World, Lavrov said that the technical details and testaments on which the report was based came from social media and unnamed witnesses.

Got to love it when Russian talking points are used verbatim in these threads.

where is the proof ??? where US satellite imagery? where data from Ukrainian radars? again spit venom. they are liars even from biblical times