Dutch Investigators Give Results of MH17 Probe to Families

a reply to: mangust69

Where is Russia's?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Apparently in an effort to add "credibility" to the Russian argument they made a point of using a German to make their case.

Blame and Bias: MH17 Plane Crash Investigation's Goal is 'to Discredit Russia

Speaking to the television channel BBC World, Lavrov said that the technical details and testaments on which the report was based came from social media and unnamed witnesses.

Got to love it when Russian talking points are used verbatim in these threads.

Well, Lavrov has a valid point there. Can't argue with that.

a reply to: Velatropa24

Ukraine’s SBU intelligence service, which represented the Kiev government in the JIT, also has among its official responsibilities the protection of secret information that could be damaging to Ukraine.

Troubling Gaps in the New MH-17 Report

You folks should take a closer look into that dutch intel report. Interesting contradiction to all that SBU disinfo imho, do we need a new thread for that? I dunno, you decide. Too much on my plate right now, but gimme a heads up in case you do.

I would just like to say that the Dutch investigation was VERY thorough, they carried out secret tests to see if it wa a russian BUK or the older ukraine version, they tracked the vehicles deployment from russia to the launch site & back again, OK the tweet werent real proof, nor are they needed, except that the dude responsible is a trigger happy colonel freind of Putin....well what are we to do next?

Holland wants to put the culprit on trial (and quite rightly so) for mass murder.
But it's not that simple, British Airways & others made that area a no-fly zone 2 weeks before the attack, maybe they knew somthing that Malaysia didn't like the possibility of high altitude missiles.

Yes it could have been a mistake, but even so that trigger happy dude killed lots of peeps, a lot of them were children.

Someone has to be held accountable, it doesnt matter who or where or why, it should not have happened.

war.

except that the dude responsible is a trigger happy colonel freind of Putin...

Care to provide some facts to back up your claim? Or is it more empty, baseless opinions driven by social engineering/zombifying programs that seem to be so successful in the West?

Someone has to be held accountable, it doesnt matter who

I am speechless.

a reply to: Velatropa24

I'd have to dissent here, it's equally effective elsewhere with a constant disinfo bombardment on all channels. Cut 'em some slag, the MSM is a mess.

Also,

war.

originally posted by: Velatropa24

except that the dude responsible is a trigger happy colonel freind of Putin...

Care to provide some facts to back up your claim? Or is it more empty, baseless opinions driven by social engineering/zombifying programs that seem to be so successful in the West?

Someone has to be held accountable, it doesnt matter who

I am speechless.

Why are you speechless? If it was your daughter on that plane maybe you would have a different opinion?

The facts are, it's pretty much certain which so-called 'renegade' unit carried out the op, and the guys involved are known to be freinds/associates/subordinates/ex KGB buddies of Vladimir.
It's pretty much certain there were Spetznaz troops in Ukraine long before & during the annexation to stir up trouble.
You have to understand the average russian peasant mind will beleive anything they are told, especially if the one doing the telling is holding a big stick. You think it's different in the West?
The ivan gubmint works the same way as the West does, by maffia tactics. By the same token, they don't call senator Harry Reid 'Dirty Harry' for nothing.

ETA: Of course this had nothing to do with the EU Ukraine referendum, in which Holland held a decisive vote, after the attack they voted OUT.
Predetermination? Give me a break, please.......
ETA Poland also had an important vote, but their prime minister & half the cabinet died in a 'plane accident' 3 years ago.....

a reply to: Velatropa24

When will Russia stop playing the overused and false "victim" excuse? They bring it on themselves when they lie and get called out for it.

It gets old.

originally posted by: Velatropa24

How about all the information which was ignored for a purpose, like the shape of the holes in the fuselage corresponding with the elements of an older version of buk which Russia has not used for a long time, however Ukraine does.

You do realise that bow-tie warhead fragments were found. I take it that you are aware that Russia still uses Buk warheads that contain bow-tie fragments?

The Dutch Safety Board has the warhead down as the 9N314M. (Cubic, Irregular and Bow-Tie fragments)

The Russians are suggesting that the warhead must have been the 9N314. (Cubic and Irregular fragments)

The Russians can't work out why Bow-tie warhead fragments have been found in the wreckage and in human remains.

Bow-tie fragments were recovered from the body of the Captain of MH17 and other human remains.

Do a Control F search for bow-tie in the report.

DSB MH17 report

Almaz-Antey back in June 2015 claimed during their detailed presentation that it was a 9M38M1. They also suggested at the time that the M1 was no longer used by Russian Forces which was a bit of a white lie.

Now they have changed their tune and claim that it was a 9M38 with the caveat of they can't understand why M1 fragments are among the evidence.

"The only thing that we do not yet understand are why fragments of 9M38M1 are amongst the evidence."

Telegraph newspaper web link

The question is who is pulling Almaz-Antey's strings here?

The white lie on the M1s and now they are throwing in the red herring of they don't understand why bow-tie warhead fragments were found?

They dangle it like a red herring. The bow-tie fragments were present but they have to make them go away and claim that they are "puzzled".

They did the same with the "Buk on the truck" footage. It had to be discredited and made to go away. Now remember that this is Russian military and intelligence claiming the following in a press presentation. The Russian military and intelligence geo-located it to Krasnoarmeisk in Ukrainian held territory.

The question arises as to why the Russians were so quick to claim to the world that the video was filmed in Krasnoarmeisk? Why did the Russian military lie to the world when they made the following claim in their MH17 presentation?

The good example of such fact is that some mass media showed transportation of the Buk-M1 missile system from Ukrainian to Russian territory.We can clearly see that its frame-up. These pictures were made in the city of Krasnoarmeisk that is confirmed by a banner situated close to the road. This banner has an address of the car shop situated at the Dnepropetrovskaya, 34. Since May 11 the Krasnoarmeysk city is under control of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

From Russian Embassy in UK webpage.

www.rusemb.org.uk...

There was no address banner on the billboard and internet sleuths quickly found the true filming location in Luhansk. Was that the best that Russian military intelligence could do with all their intelligence resources? It was a blatant lie and attempt to deceive.

The video was geo-located to Luhansk and features in the JIT report. The question is why did the Russian military and intelligence services lie in their press conference?

See following thread for full details of the true location in Luhansk. My post on that forum.

Keymags forum thread link

originally posted by: Velatropa24

What ever happened to transcripts and testimonys from Ukrainian air traffic controllers, who magically disappeared?

The Ukrainians passed all their ATC communication records to the Dutch Safety Board. Everything matched up with the data from the recovered black boxes. The flight plan was exactly as planned apart from the MH17 crew themselves asking for a deviation due to weather. The Russians eventually agreed with the flight path as set out in the Dutch Safety Board report.

If you are referring to Carlos the Spanish ATC guy in Ukraine then he was a fantasist. He was the guy that put out tweets and also gave interviews on Russia Today. Even Russia Today quickly gave up on reporting on him after they realized that they had been duped.

Carlos link

Ask yourself why the Russians who signed off on the preliminary MH17 report why they didn't ask for Carlos to be their star witness? The reason was that he was a fantasist.

originally posted by: Velatropa24


Why were most of the victims fb pages created on the same day not long prior to the crash?

Because they were not. What die-hard conspiracy site promoted that claim? Was it one of the die-hards on You Tube?

Why were a lot of expired and pierced passports found at the crash site, and so on.

Nothing unusual about people having both expired and current passports with them. Expired passports can
still have long term visas. For example for travel in Malaysia or other destinations.

See following thread with links.

Metabunk link on MH17 passports

originally posted by: playswithmachines

originally posted by: Velatropa24

except that the dude responsible is a trigger happy colonel freind of Putin...

Care to provide some facts to back up your claim? Or is it more empty, baseless opinions driven by social engineering/zombifying programs that seem to be so successful in the West?

Someone has to be held accountable, it doesnt matter who

I am speechless.

Why are you speechless? If it was your daughter on that plane maybe you would have a different opinion?

The facts are, it's pretty much certain which so-called 'renegade' unit carried out the op, and the guys involved are known to be freinds/associates/subordinates/ex KGB buddies of Vladimir.
It's pretty much certain there were Spetznaz troops in Ukraine long before & during the annexation to stir up trouble.
You have to understand the average russian peasant mind will beleive anything they are told, especially if the one doing the telling is holding a big stick. You think it's different in the West?
The ivan gubmint works the same way as the West does, by maffia tactics. By the same token, they don't call senator Harry Reid 'Dirty Harry' for nothing.

The facts are, it's pretty much certain which so-called 'renegade' unit carried out the op, and the guys involved are known to be freinds/associates/subordinates/ex KGB buddies of Vladimir.

Fact by definition has nothing "pretty much" about it. Where are they? Where is even one?

You have to understand the average russian peasant mind will beleive anything they are told, especially if the one doing the telling is holding a big stick.

Lets see, so far the only Russian in the thread refuses to blindly swallow the lies being force fed by the media and demands evidence and transparency. I'm sorry my friend, but "facts" here paint a completely different picture then the insulting garbage coming out of your mouth.

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: Velatropa24

How about all the information which was ignored for a purpose, like the shape of the holes in the fuselage corresponding with the elements of an older version of buk which Russia has not used for a long time, however Ukraine does.

You do realise that bow-tie warhead fragments were found. I take it that you are aware that Russia still uses Buk warheads that contain bow-tie fragments?

The Dutch Safety Board has the warhead down as the 9N314M. (Cubic, Irregular and Bow-Tie fragments)

The Russians are suggesting that the warhead must have been the 9N314. (Cubic and Irregular fragments)

The Russians can't work out why Bow-tie warhead fragments have been found in the wreckage and in human remains.

Bow-tie fragments were recovered from the body of the Captain of MH17 and other human remains.

Do a Control F search for bow-tie in the report.

DSB MH17 report

Almaz-Antey back in June 2015 claimed during their detailed presentation that it was a 9M38M1. They also suggested at the time that the M1 was no longer used by Russian Forces which was a bit of a white lie.

Now they have changed their tune and claim that it was a 9M38 with the caveat of they can't understand why M1 fragments are among the evidence.

"The only thing that we do not yet understand are why fragments of 9M38M1 are amongst the evidence."

Telegraph newspaper web link

The question is who is pulling Almaz-Antey's strings here?

The white lie on the M1s and now they are throwing in the red herring of they don't understand why bow-tie warhead fragments were found?

They dangle it like a red herring. The bow-tie fragments were present but they have to make them go away and claim that they are "puzzled".

They did the same with the "Buk on the truck" footage. It had to be discredited and made to go away. Now remember that this is Russian military and intelligence claiming the following in a press presentation. The Russian military and intelligence geo-located it to Krasnoarmeisk in Ukrainian held territory.

The question arises as to why the Russians were so quick to claim to the world that the video was filmed in Krasnoarmeisk? Why did the Russian military lie to the world when they made the following claim in their MH17 presentation?

The good example of such fact is that some mass media showed transportation of the Buk-M1 missile system from Ukrainian to Russian territory.We can clearly see that its frame-up. These pictures were made in the city of Krasnoarmeisk that is confirmed by a banner situated close to the road. This banner has an address of the car shop situated at the Dnepropetrovskaya, 34. Since May 11 the Krasnoarmeysk city is under control of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

From Russian Embassy in UK webpage.

www.rusemb.org.uk...

There was no address banner on the billboard and internet sleuths quickly found the true filming location in Luhansk. Was that the best that Russian military intelligence could do with all their intelligence resources? It was a blatant lie and attempt to deceive.

The video was geo-located to Luhansk and features in the JIT report. The question is why did the Russian military and intelligence services lie in their press conference?

See following thread for full details of the true location in Luhansk. My post on that forum.

Keymags forum thread link

The Russians are suggesting that the warhead must have been the 9N314. (Cubic and Irregular fragments)

The Russians can't work out why Bow-tie warhead fragments have been found in the wreckage and in human remains.

Actually, it's the other way around. The holes found correspond with the bow tie fragments, which Almaz Antei claimed from the very start, where Jit are claiming a version of the rocket that uses cubical and irregular.

But I'm not surprised about the confusion, seeing you use the daily telegraph (Rupert Murdoch's sensationalist crap rag propaganda entity) as a legitimite source.

Now - as far as the evidence, before making such an effort, please read what I have very specifically described as LEGITIMATE EVIDENCE a few posts back. Otherwise we will continue to go around in circles here. I have not seen it yet. Until I do, you have no case.

originally posted by: Velatropa24

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

When will Russia stop playing the overused and false "victim" excuse? They bring it on themselves when they lie and get called out for it.

It gets old.

...yawn.

Your non factual, biased and baseless input is getting old.

and yet the Russian version of events have continually changed. That seems to occur when the latest lie they push is debunked.

Tell me what happened to Russia swearing up and down MH17 was downed by a Ukrainian military aircraft? They claimed they had radar intercepts showing this and even "located" the pilot who was behind the controls.

and Russia, and you, wonder why no one believes what the Russians claim.

But by all means explain to us why we should trust Russia that a Ukrainian mig shot down MH17.


The ever changing explanations from Russia. Keep in mind this only brings us up to October 2015 so there are yet more excuses Russia has put out that arent listed.


* - Flight MH17: Russia and its changing story

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Velatropa24

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

When will Russia stop playing the overused and false "victim" excuse? They bring it on themselves when they lie and get called out for it.

It gets old.

...yawn.

Your non factual, biased and baseless input is getting old.

and yet the Russian version of events have continually changed. That seems to occur when the latest lie they push is debunked.

Tell me what happened to Russia swearing up and down MH17 was downed by a Ukrainian military aircraft? They claimed they had radar intercepts showing this and even "located" the pilot who was behind the controls.

and Russia, and you, wonder why no one believes what the Russians claim.

But by all means explain to us why we should trust Russia that a Ukrainian mig shot down MH17.

That seems to occur when you work through different possibilities and eliminate them one by one, what a proper investigation presumes. Stating the outcome at the start, then gathering facts to fit it on the other hand, is what happens when an investigation is a political order. Go think about that.

That was point #1.

Point number 2:

I have not once wondered in this thread wheather or why anyone believes or doesn't believe Russia. I have maintained quite consistently that the official investigation lacks evidence and raises questions, yet people blindly swallow it. There is a difference.

What you are doing is attributing to me things that were never said by me, in other words putting words in my mouth. Please stop.

a reply to: Velatropa24

No its a sign that Russia is doing whatever it can to "muddy the waters" and shift blame for their actions.

So you cant defend the Russian stories they have put out?