Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Have you ever really compared versions. The NASB was the first Bible I was given and read as a new beleiver. the first thing I notices was that the NASB was a College reading level translation. At that time my reading level was about 11th grade. As I mentioned earlier the AV is at a Sixth grade reading level which allows for more simple and easier understanding. Look just at just this one verse and its differences between the two versions. I always say things that are different are not the same.

quote]Matthew 19:14New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Now at first you may think these verse are the same meaning but they are not. Before I say what the NASB has done let me give some meanings of words just in case you don't know them. "Suffer the little children" Suffer here means "to allow" let so literally it says allow little children, forbid means "not allow", not hinder them from coming. If we keep the context which starts in verse 13 we understand it was not the children coming on their own but that the parents or others were bringing the children

Mt 19:33 ¶ Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

then there reads, to "come to me" Understand the translators were well versed in the Greek copies they had and knew that the English needed commas at certain points to read proper;y and give proper understanding. The NASB removed some of these and makes it one complete statement which looses some understanding and changes the meaning. Now look at the last part of the sentence in the NASB they have literally added words to the text without letting you know that they did such. After the Colon : in the AV Jesus says, "such is the kingdom of Heaven". Jesus is now telling us that the kingdom is freely accessible to who ever wants to come and no one will be kept from coming. The NASB Changed and adds words to make it say that the kingdom belongs to such as these.

Many of those words cannot be found in any Greek text. They are being intellectually dishonest by adding to the word of God. In the AV you will find there in both of the verses 13 and 14, there is only one word the translators added to the text and when they did they Italicized it so you would know it was not in the text, but that this was done only to keep the English structure correct for ease of reading.

What the translators of the NASB did was give you their personal pin-pointed translation of the verse in such a way so that there is no room for further revelation or understanding other than that which they wanted you to know. They gave you no indication of what words were added to the text, when they did this they were not doing a word for word translation as the AV does, but rather Gave you their independent interpretation on what they felt it should read to match their Thelology. It is very different from the AV and gives you the replacement theology view of it rather than the true view of it as Jesus was stating.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
Um, then can you "explain" how those who Jesus taught to "go and sin no more" were privy to "salvation".
Because, according to PAUL....you can't even RECEIVE spiritual truths if you are a "natural man/woman".
Oh, and according to "Paul", NO ONE is actually saved unless the crucifixion has occurred and Jesus has shed His blood, and there in NO ONE RIGHTEOUS...NO, NOT ONE.

Perhaps, I'm not picking up what you're laying down, I feel Jesus is relatively speaking when he mentions sinning no more.I guess it depends alot on how one feels about the existence of absolutes.It brings to mind when a mob was tempted to stone a women accused of adultery.Jesus told them that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.

In my opinion the what the scriptures record in 1 Cor. 2:14 about natural man and the ability to discern spiritually refers to the carnal side of our human nature.The side of us where the ego holds sway, or the like in the cartoons the little daemon on one's left shoulder that whispers temptations, and schemes in one's inner voice.This is the part of us that can metaphorically die when one is reborn.It's not a literal death, though it can feel that way.It's more of developing the maturity to put that side of us in it's proper place.Individuals who have transformed their perspective there, can often relate differently to others who have gone through the same thing.What they have to say, won't necessarily make sense to those who haven't experienced that kind of transformation.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
SOOO.....how can someone stop sinning, if according to PAUL, it's impossible, due to our sin nature and the "unregenerate man/woman"? You know, the same "unregenerate man/woman that Jesus told to STOP SINNING....BEFORE Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of sins? OR...before Paul's doctrine was put out to tell everyone that they were just "dirty, rotten, sinners", who could NEVER measure up to God's standard.

Paul's message is strongly influenced by his experience on the road to Damascus.Someone who has found Jesus in that way, may have a difficult time accepting that other's could be chosen in another fashion.It hinges on how individuals feel about the resurecction and the power of the Holy Spirit.These process are not static or existing in a vaccuum.When Paul brings up nobody being without sin, I feel he is painting this in the light of absolutes.This makes sense in the context of Jesus saying nobody is Good, but God alone.I think he would look at living a life practicing faith in the holiness of God as being the only thing in this world, that is absolutely good.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
Well, you are correct on that point. Oh, and Jesus doesn't need Paul to "expound" on HIS teachings. What Jesus taught is sufficient....and then some.

Miss Matrixsurvivor, this makes me wonder what your opinion is on Jesus promising to send the Counselor to believers, if his time here teaching us was enough...

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

he is a Muslim so anyone not a Muslim is an evil one.

Lol, could it be that simple?

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

to them it is that simple.

read back a few paged he admits to being a Muslim. He continually and purposely insults me and others. He is not a follower of Jesus in any way. By all that we read in all his posts in this thread it is obvious to us he is Gnosisisfaith but before that exactly a year ago in Dec 2015 his name was LastDays.

Coomba96 calls him padawan 1

The topic of different kinds of gospels has been brought up in this thread, I had wanted to comment, earlier.

Chester brought up the perspective of dividing the gospels.Idk about you, but I feel he was getting at the various context that can be brought up, when investigating the Good News.

On one's spiritual journey, they can find themselves in "Egypt".Egypt in a allegorical sense in regards to their spiritual perspective.I don't think it's a stretch to figure that could encompass gentile forms of religion ("Paganism") or the more occult path of spirituality.

Paul's mission is considered to be one aimed at bringing the Gentiles to Christ.The Gospel of Grace is the message he preached, after his conversion on the road to Damascus.

I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the Hebrew people's had rejected Jesus.He would not had been crucified, if that wasn't the case.I get the impression Jesus knew exactly the kind of fate that awaited him, for spreading his message.It's alluded to in Mathew 23.

The thing is, that if you don't believe in Jesus life, how would you recognize him?Paul's message reaches out to those who don't know him.

In a way, the Bible can be thought of as a book encompassing the history of the Holy Spirit.The scriptures chronicalling the evolution of the spirit from Genesis to back into paradise.I'm calling it Paradise here, though what I'm getting at is the peace of mind that the Good News brings for those who understand the message of the prophets.It records an incredible range of human experience with the divine through a wide range of times, and scenarios.Alot of it can parallel our own lives as individuals growing in understanding.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

There are elements of salvation found in scriptures that are to be used at a given time. (up to you to find out which is for which).

1) Faith, works, and grace. Have faith in God do as instructed (works), in the end you will receive his grace of salvation.

2) Faith, grace and works. Have faith in God through Jesus Christ cross, receive God Grace of Salvation and good works will follow as a natural result of Salvation.

3) Works and grace. Do what is required and obey Christ and in the judgement if you do it with a right heart you may just receive God's grace of Salvation.

The last being without faith for they will see Christ. That should help you a little to figure out which is for today a little easier. A little right division will help you figure it out. But hey don't expect you to follow that seeing it is instruction from God given through inspiration to Paul, your hated object in this thread.

These three elements are always at work in the first two forms and they are pre kingdom. After that there will be no faith involved.

The way he mentioned those without faith seeing Christ through works and grace reminds me of those just how far those practicing doing the best that they can, with what they have been given can go.

The first way brings to mind, a more traditional path.Practicing Christianity as belief system, developing oneself within that paradigm, more exclusively.Using it as a complete system of spiritual development and the having faith in oneself.I'm thinking of those born into this belief, and run with it.

The second way brings to mind, those who hear the Good News, maybe a little later in life or revist their childhood faith and start to gradually recognize the morals and truths that have helped improve individuals lives.Paying it forward, their positive actions feed their faith as they recognize the mystical body of Christ, and experience the fellowship that brings.

Works and grace, reminds me of those who don't believe in Christ and are visited or recognize him in Second Coming (depending on how they "seek") and then realizing he never left!It's a life changing experience, to say the least.Like a thief in the night...

I'm coming at all this from the perspective of self development.Milage may vary, though I think it's natural for individuals to judge themselves when they really take treating others as themselves.I think alot of the commandments mentioned in the bible, are meant to protect those seeking from the judgment that comes when one truely accepts this kind of teaching as being "real" in a practical sense.How could it not??When one's life flashes before their eyes, how are they going to feel?It's comforting to know the same experience comes with someone there who can help us to truely forgive ourselves and be born into a new life.Everything changes...

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I've seen him describe himself like that.I'm curious about what his perspective is regardless.

Muslims can know Christ too.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Oh yeah they can know Christ but not as saviour and Lord.

Just go back to when he started around page 62 or so and you can start reading about his perspective.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Have you ever really compared versions. The NASB was the first Bible I was given and read as a new beleiver. the first thing I notices was that the NASB was a College reading level translation. At that time my reading level was about 11th grade. As I mentioned earlier the AV is at a Sixth grade reading level which allows for more simple and easier understanding. Look just at just this one verse and its differences between the two versions. I always say things that are different are not the same.

quote]Matthew 19:14New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Now at first you may think these verse are the same meaning but they are not. Before I say what the NASB has done let me give some meanings of words just in case you don't know them. "Suffer the little children" Suffer here means "to allow" let so literally it says allow little children, forbid means "not allow", not hinder them from coming. If we keep the context which starts in verse 13 we understand it was not the children coming on their own but that the parents or others were bringing the children

Mt 19:33 ¶ Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

then there reads, to "come to me" Understand the translators were well versed in the Greek copies they had and knew that the English needed commas at certain points to read proper;y and give proper understanding. The NASB removed some of these and makes it one complete statement which looses some understanding and changes the meaning. Now look at the last part of the sentence in the NASB they have literally added words to the text without letting you know that they did such. After the Colon : in the AV Jesus says, "such is the kingdom of Heaven". Jesus is now telling us that the kingdom is freely accessible to who ever wants to come and no one will be kept from coming. The NASB Changed and adds words to make it say that the kingdom belongs to such as these.

Many of those words cannot be found in any Greek text. They are being intellectually dishonest by adding to the word of God. In the AV you will find there in both of the verses 13 and 14, there is only one word the translators added to the text and when they did they Italicized it so you would know it was not in the text, but that this was done only to keep the English structure correct for ease of reading.

What the translators of the NASB did was give you their personal pin-pointed translation of the verse in such a way so that there is no room for further revelation or understanding other than that which they wanted you to know. They gave you no indication of what words were added to the text, when they did this they were not doing a word for word translation as the AV does, but rather Gave you their independent interpretation on what they felt it should read to match their Thelology. It is very different from the AV and gives you the replacement theology view of it rather than the true view of it as Jesus was stating.[/quote/]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------

Matrixsurvivor's response............

So, if the translators would do all of the above you stated..(which is tampering by dishonest men), how can you believe that the Bible itself wasn't tampered with?
Honestly, that's like saying, "well, God allowed men to tamper with the wording to a DEGREE....yet, made sure the Bible wasn't tampered with originally".

The Bible has numerous contradictions, from the OT to the NT. Many have found them when studying it objectively.
Even you have found them just comparing different versions of the Bible. There IS not an original "untainted" Bible. It doesn't exist, because the book itself is not inerrant, infallible, and holy, like you and other fundamentalists claim.
There is truth in it....but, even Jesus' words have probably been added to, or other things He taught, left out. However, even that being so, one can read His teachings and see the good and beauty in them.

Do you know when Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
It really doesn't take much to understand what He's saying (whether the translators jacked with the translations or not).
A child can read that and understand that Jesus 1) loves children and 2) loves a childlike heart.
(which blows YHWH'S "stone an unruly kid" right out of the water).

It's like I said already numerous times, NO MAN had seen the Father or even KNEW Him...except the Son. What Jesus showed was so radically different than who the Jews believed in, it's no wonder the common people were drawn to Him, while the religious rulers/priests were enraged by His teachings.
Truth is Chester, you can actually have a relationship with God and with Jesus....without the Bible, or Paul, or a bunch of legalistic rules and fear.
It really is ok.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

Miss Matrixsurvivor, this makes me wonder what your opinion is on Jesus promising to send the Counselor to believers, if his time here teaching us was enough...

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26

The HS is to remind of all Jesus taught (which can be found in the gospels). Paul did not speak on the Father's authority...he spoke on his own self appointed authority. Plus, he never ever heard the teachings of Jesus. What Paul taught was all his own.

You're absolutely right Matrix about the HS and Comforter. Without that, you've got nothing here. You're arguing over words of dubious origin to begin with. And how are you really going to know for sure without that personal touch from Him. I really actually marvel how persistent people can be at being religious their whole lives and never really experience that. But in the end their religion is no better than anyone else's at actually changing hearts to love Him in simplicity. You have to have the HS with you all the time. That's what's missing. You can't even love God let alone each other without it.
My personal take on Paul was he said a lot of good things. He did get that from the HS. Paul was also human and it shows. My biggest problem is he took the Way in the wrong direction. He was inspiring a confrontational church from the beginning and calls to take up shields of faith and swords were in no way in the spirit of Jesus. Even applied in the spiritual sense, as it is today, the whole mentality of putting on armor is saying you can achieve your victory through effort. That has never worked. But it has enslaved you to trying to reach an ideal you will never get. Jesus said the burden would be light. You've been played if you don't actually have the HS, or whatever you want to call it.
I do love the bible but I don't worship it like an idol like most of the rest of Christendom. But Paul went out on his own and assumed a bit too much. The whole point was a way of life, not build a kingdom. That's why the church is such the disgrace it is today. It's just heartbreaking how #ed up it got.

"Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

a reply to: JerryMH

I really actually marvel how persistent people can be at being religious their whole lives and never really experience that. But in the end their religion is no better than anyone else's at actually changing hearts to love Him in simplicity.

So true. Do you know why they can't love HIM in simplicity? Because Paul's false doctrines have screwed it all up...or screwed up the simplicity that is in the teachings of Jesus alone. That is why you see the church as it is today...divided.
If all believers...and people...would just follow the 2 golden rules (love God and love others), this world would be the utopia (and the Kingdom Jesus said had come) already.
But, you have a false apostle and a blood thirsty, arrogant deity (YHWH) in those pages.
Whaala!
You now have extremely rotten fruit.
What's so sad is fundamental Christians can't even see the rotten fruit the Bible has brought forth. You know why?
Because everything is justified under Jesus saying you would have trouble in this world, and then the rotten fruit Paul brought forth is justified by the above.
If everyone (even JUST believers) would live by those 2 commandments...and nothing else, there would be no judgment of others, no fighting amongst the "Christians" who all say they worship God (and most worship Jesus as "god", even though He taught nothing of the sort), and you'd not have over 40,000 denominations in Christendom and so much bickering amongst those denominations.

But, most who are indoctrinated can't even see that. Do you know what I think is the cause of that? FEAR.
Fear of actually questioning anything in the Bible, fear of going against the mainstream....and even those who think they are actually being rebellious against "said church doctrine"...really don't challenge it, because you can only stick your "toe" over the line so much. Only so much though...any more and you might face the wrath of god....(or be excluded from the "club"..meaning "being a Christian".)

originally posted by: cooperton
"Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Anyone who talks to God is spiritual.

People who think God talks to them in words don't get spirituality.

Their isn't anything about the Bible that leads me to believe it's actually the word of God, quite the opposite actually.

Jesus was a great Prophet and the spiritual Messiah, but he was not a or the One God.

Excise the epistles of Paul give me the original Hebrew/Aramaic Gospel translated into English, and ditch the tyrrany of the OT God of genocide, or its literal interpretation, and you MIGHT hear God.

Until then.... I don't think you are hearing God at all.

But it's just the opinion of a man (me) and your welcome to believe whatever you want. Educated opinion though it is (mine).

You equate Orthodox Christianity and it's ridiculously absurd doctrines and hypocrisy with listening to God.

That sounds like the wide path to me.

Find the narrow.

originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
a reply to: ChesterJohn

I've seen him describe himself like that.I'm curious about what his perspective is regardless.

Muslims can know Christ too.

We do. It's fundamental to our religion and Jesus and his mother are prominent in the Qur'an, certainly you know this.

People who think that Allah is anything other than the Arabic way of saying God or The God to be more accurate, that Islam has a ''different" God than Christianity or Judaism are either full of hate propaganda, just hate, bigotry or are just plain uneducated when it comes to Islam and have not read the Qur'an.

Whether or not you have read it, I applaud your willingness to tolerate differences.

The truth is Islam and Judaism as well as Christianity DO worship the same God, the differences are less than what they have in common by a wide margin, and the animosity is more political than theological.

I have honestly never heard a Muslim claim that the God of Moses, Jesus and Mohammed were not the same. It's been that way since day one. The Qur'an totally accepts Christians and Jews as co religions that need not convert, though they may and many have.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
So true. Do you know why they can't love HIM in simplicity? Because Paul's false doctrines have screwed it all up...or screwed up the simplicity that is in the teachings of Jesus alone. That is why you see the church as it is today...divided.
If all believers...and people...would just follow the 2 golden rules (love God and love others), this world would be the utopia (and the Kingdom Jesus said had come) already.
But, you have a false apostle and a blood thirsty, arrogant deity (YHWH) in those pages.
Whaala!
You now have extremely rotten fruit.
What's so sad is fundamental Christians can't even see the rotten fruit the Bible has brought forth. You know why?
Because everything is justified under Jesus saying you would have trouble in this world, and then the rotten fruit Paul brought forth is justified by the above.

It can be frustrating at times.Idk, what exactly comes to mind for you.Who do you imagine these fundamental Christians are?For me, I usually figure the more Evangelical side of this kind of faith.What kind of challenges come to mind, when you think about them and the Christian faith?

What's your view on (YHWH) in the Bible?

Here, we've been bouncing around ideas about Paul's role in Christianity, but in a practical sense what kind of issues has his writings effect day to day life?This isn't 20, questions, I'm just wanting to hear your perspective on this.(I remember the issue of animal welfare in the context of the thread was brought up earlier, for example)

originally posted by: JerryMH
My personal take on Paul was he said a lot of good things. He did get that from the HS. Paul was also human and it shows. My biggest problem is he took the Way in the wrong direction. He was inspiring a confrontational church from the beginning and calls to take up shields of faith and swords were in no way in the spirit of Jesus. Even applied in the spiritual sense, as it is today, the whole mentality of putting on armor is saying you can achieve your victory through effort. That has never worked. But it has enslaved you to trying to reach an ideal you will never get. Jesus said the burden would be light. You've been played if you don't actually have the HS, or whatever you want to call it.
I do love the bible but I don't worship it like an idol like most of the rest of Christendom. But Paul went out on his own and assumed a bit too much. The whole point was a way of life, not build a kingdom. That's why the church is such the disgrace it is today. It's just heartbreaking how #ed up it got.

Your mentioning shields and swords and putting on armour evokes the combative side of the Church.Idk, I have know some who go out and try spreading their faith, sometimes they behave really zealous about it.It's fine to feel that way, but often they experience setbacks trying to express themselves.A fire and brimstone approach to the faith.Hopefully, it's just a stage they go through, it's good to keep in mind others have been going on their own spiritual journey through life as well.I mention this as a reminder, it's good to practice humility with the message because it's hard to tell where someone is on their path by just looking at ideas.It's draining though, to see a new perspective and have it appear like the system just neatly tries to keep the cogs in place.Force doesn't work, only love and understanding can build the foundation and bridges for others in our lives...

I have to say, I find something about the Bible hilarious.

Yahweh so called in English Lord, though it doesn't mean anything of the sort to warrant as a translation or Adonai in Masoretic, is in human terms of judged as a human, is the most despicable tyrant in all of history and even literature specifically, but I can tolerate him because he doesn't really try to hide it and the stories aren't meant to be about historical events but the mythology around which a culture lives, the Israelites or Judahites were no different than any culture, they all had myths that shared characters and features and the gods were portrayed as super human like spirits of different power and usually they had a pantheon. Religion evolved to monotheism in many cultures eventually and they made the lesser God's angels, humans or did away with them altogether.

Disgusting as Yahweh is in that catalogue of -cides. Genocide, infanticide, regicide, matricide, patricide, infant sacrifice reminisced about by Yahweh to the prophet, the sacrifice of a generals daughter being accepted by Yahweh, the general and the daughter, it goes on and on.

The stories are clearly esoteric or parable like and incorporate the histories of other nations as their own, and plain mythology.

Paul is worse than Yahweh. He is more arrogant and boastful although less murderous and his epistles are the worst examples of religious literature ever written. Celebrated scumbag, that is what Paul is.

He takes and ruins a perfectly reasonable theology that almost all men and women can agree with as even the worst of people still like Jesus and his family and friends, are inspired by him and want to be like him. He picks a rag tag group of fisherman, Sicari bandits, tax collectors, and other less than perfect men and women and fills them with the Holy Spirit.


Then comes this no good murderer, Roman collaborator and low life snitch, double crossing traitor and jealous scumbag Paul or "Saul of Tarsus" claiming that he had visions from Jesus and wanted to join.

Paul has all the makings of a mole. Claimed Pharisee, Sadducee employed and Herod connected Nazarene hunter has secret revelation from their Messiah and now believes.

Luke, who like Paul never knew Jesus and has no role other than follow Paul writes a story about Paul joining forces with and then outshining, by way of not mentioning, the 12 apostles. Not much of it is confirmed by Paul, the Damascus road ''conversion" story being the most notable thing among them.

With exception of probably bogus 2 Peter mentiong ''brother Paul" nothing at all is said about him by James, John or any other writing of any apostle or personal disciple of Jesus. Or anyone from that era.

Acts, and Paul's own epistles are all that attest to the legitimacy of Paul as a disciple of James and Luke didn't witness Paul hearing Jesus or consistently tell the story so Paul not confirming it and claiming to be a prophet is pathetically unbelievable as a real event.

Paul claims he has multiple revelations and seems to be making it up as he goes, saying he ''knew someone" who got briefly taken into heaven and heard things unspeakable, clearly meaning himself although awkwardly trying to appear possibly humble or something equally ridiculous.

Constantly insults the 12 apostles, contradicts himself and acts like a man obsessed with being someone more important than the apostles, lies, rationalizes lying saying it abounds to God's glory, and denounced the Gospels saying he has the right gospel and any other be accursed, which he replaced with a "faith in grace" sacrificial atonement for your sins if you believe what he tells you false gospel contradictory to the message of Jesus.

And people eat it up oblivious to narrative of the entire New Testament, reading a section here a section there never realizing that it isn't even hard to see that Paul hates the apostles and Judaism and is a total scumbag hypocrite that nobody vouches for who actually knew Jesus or belonged to his movement.

Paul is believed simply because he is in a book and for no other reason at all. His epistles actually ruined the whole message of Jesus for all time and are the reason why people generally think Bible thumping, salvation preaching Christians are annoying if not insane.

There are thousands of Churches claiming to be "the one true Church" that actually dislike each other for no real reason sometimes.

For the most part Christianity is normal and accepted, it's not weird to go to church.

But their are certain churches and certain people in churches who are just obnoxious about getting your soul saved from hell and accepting Jesus as ''Lord and Saviour" to the point where they need to save everyone else too. Televangelist are the most extreme but not rare type of preacher, there is one Joel Osteen for every church he just isn't on TV or writing. Same phoneyness although Osteen actually is more about Osteen and the rest are about Paul. Catholics tend not to ever discuss the Bible other than at certain schools, most priests know less about the Bible than anyone else. If you ask one when is Bible study he will most likely have no answer as the Mass and Eucharist and the Pope are more important to them than Jesus or Paul.

Protestants and any non Catholic or Eastern Orthodox type churchs are about Jesus to get you to church only to talk about Paul and follow what Paul says as the word of God, that Jesus isn't just the Son of God but he is also God too, and the Holy Spirit is God too and there is a Trinity but we aren't polytetheists.

They lie and tell you Jesus is God because one single small paragraph in the beginning of John says the Word was made flesh.

I would say that is a metaphor and based on the neo Platonism of Philo applied to Jesus by someone not the apostle John and a Greek familiar with Greek philosophy because the word of God is what the Tanakh is called in Hebrew and Christian theology.

But in Greek philosophy Logos or Word is an emanation from the creator, an instrument in creation that proceeds from God, not God but a god so to speak.

Either way Jesus denied being God many times in many places and never explained his death as a vicarious atonement for sin at all, it was more to display the power of God and justify him as a spiritual Messiah who may not have saved all Israelites from the Romans or protected Jerusalem but he instructed them in righteousness and was God's chosen one to reveal the secret of eternal life.

You must ressurection before you die, not after, because we are not all Messiahs and need to be in a certain state to enter into God's presence. The Kingdom of God is here, now.

God's Kingdom of Heaven is up there if you want to go there you need to act like you would there...here.

Whether or not you think Jesus is God the Bible doesn't actually say that. It hints that the word of God became a god and became flesh, gave his only human son to humanity so everyone who believes in him has eternal life and one time Jesus says before Abraham was I am. It's not the same thing as saying I am God, and Jesus denied being God so you actually have to override the Bible and common sense to believe Jesus is God by not reading it or telling yourself whatever you want to hear.

Christians are the Kings of Sophistry, the philosophy of trying to make things that aren't true, true and don't make sense, make sense by twisting logic to meet your will.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

GRACE, is the answer.

Grace is the answer to what? That is one aspect of God only so it can't answer everything. Judgement is another aspect that makes grace conditional upon certainly more than ''Jesus dying for your sins." That sounds like a freebie and license to sin because you are covered but isn't, it's just replaced with Paul's rules and not actually God's grace, Paul has a whole lot of rules in his writings.

If that was all it took then nobody would need the Bible, just put up signs everywhere saying:

Jesus died for your sins. Go on about your business.

But it doesn't quite work that way. It's a sales pitch followed by rules and more rules to the point you become indoctrinated into a whole system of rules.

You still can't sin because you are going to be judged on your actions, or else what is the need for judgement?

Jesus had specific teachings, Paul is a cranky blowhard and a fraud.

The Holy Ghost, the father and the Word/Son/Jesus Christ are one. When they (meaning God/the Holy Ghost/Jesus Christ) lead you to the truth and you through faith believe and receive the grace of God. Grace gives you the power to sin no more. But while you are alive you can still sin and sin away that grace.

But as long a man/woman is alive there is nothing from keeping them from getting saved, repenting and continuing in that Grace God freely gives as a gift.

Father= 1 God
Son= 1 God
Spirit= 1 God+
--------------------------
= 3 Gods.

3=3 therefore you are not a technical Monotheist and worship a human who personally denied being God.

"Master you are good."

Jesus: " Why did you call me good? ONLY God is good."

Jesus denied being good when he rebuked the one calling him good because only God is good. Which means God is good alone, not Jesus the Messiah or any man.

If God is good, Jesus can't be God, because he denied being good, and remember, GOD IS GOOD.

The Holy Spirit (who is this holy ghost? Who died and became the holy ghost?) is the feminine aspect of the One God.

You can say, metaphorically, Jesus is God's son because the Old Testament has many and it's not uncommon but they are not gods or God either.

Whatever floats your boat though, Christ, Chrishna or Paul, is fine with me but the Bible doesn't actually say Jesus is God or a God or in a Trinity of Gods.

Trinity and monotheism are logically irreconcilable, it's the reason you don't consider Hindus to be monotheists.

That is by definition hypocrisy because if God can be 3 and 1 then so can God be 10 or 100 and 1 and any polytetheistic religion can be monotheistic too and by default are.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Typical PC anti-christian using labels to instill fear.

Allah to day is not the same as it was 2,000 years ago, that would be 1,400 years before Islam was even thought of. 2,000 years ago Allah was a tribal Arabian god of the moon who had two daughters. That is right an idol, one of thousands that Mohamed removed from the the temple in Mecca. It was this Idol's top position that was kept, because all who had their idol gods on Mecca knew that in the hierarchy of those tribal Arabian god's Allah was the most high one. So Allah's name was kept and stripped from the idol and slipped into the sayings of Mohamed to be the same god as the Jews.

Sorry no matter what Allah will always be an Arbian tribal god and the True Almighty God knows this and will not be called by this devils name. And all who do and think that the Almighty God and Allah are the same will learn differnently son enough.

If every Islamic Martyr could speak from the grace today they will tell you Jesus Christ is the Almighty God and to repent ad turn to him for salvation. But once you cross that deadline you cannot tell anyone anything.

Read the Bible the whole Bible he preserved word of God for us today found in the AV listen to the words of Jesus and His instructions to Paul and be saved by God's grace through your faith and live for him as a true believer in the one true Almighty God.

a reply to: JerryMH

The battle in which Paul describes himself in Romans 7, is why he lays out the spiritual armour for men today in Ephesians. The whole battle is a spiritual battle one that we must fight as long as we are in this body of flesh. Our strength and victory is not in ourselves but in the Lord

Eph 6:10-18 finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

The armor is only to help protect us from the daily onslaught of the Devil and his emissaries, some of which are human. We are told to stand and withstand not once but four times, and the only offensive weapon we are given is the word of God, called the sword of the spirit, and its instruction of use is prayer.

Sorry, this is not our victory it is the Lord's, he has already won, we are only trying to live for him in this life and this armour is part of that life. He will get the glory for our use of the armour and the word of God.

Many Christians fail to put on this armour of God, before you sit up each morning and your feet hit the ground thanksgiving to God should be lifted up that he allowed your eyes to open once again in this life, then slip into the armour of God, Go to his word first thing and read it, and pray. before you go and do anything else. The failure of many Christians to do this daily leaves them in spiritual defeat each day and many fall into sin because of it.

The whole word of God the only offensive weapon we have should not be shredded and blasphemed but revered and respected. If you think, that is if anyone thinks, that the word of God is in error, not whole, complete, Preserved as promised, God breathed and inspired then that sword is a broken toothpick useless for nothing. And you have already conceded defeat to the enemy.

I stand daily fully arrayed in the Armour of God but I do not claim the victory for the victory is Christ's and Christ's alone.We Praise you Lord Jesus for your victorious cross the smell of life to those who find it and the smell of death to those who reject it.