Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I don't practice any of that under the gospel of the grace of God.

Godly women know how to behave in church.

No innocent beings or animals are sacrificed today and have not been for millennium.

No one practiced any of the things you mention since the time of Christ. No biblical proof Israel followed the law as a matter of fact it seems they were scattered abroad because they didn't follow God's laws, precepts, ordinances, statutes, judgements, and ways.

You are being illogical seeing no one has practiced any of that for millennium.

try living in this world and stop looking to something that we can never prove even took place.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

He has heard every word to that you can rest on.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Try using the preserved word as a definer of words not a modern dictionary

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

you opinion means nothing. We are not Israel n the land nor do they practice that law anyway.

Time to come back to reality and line in the modern day.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

you opinion means nothing. We are not Israel n the land nor do they practice that law anyway.

Time to come back to reality or modern times.

Have you read the Torah at all?
Besides, just because the Nicene council decided to include Paul's letters, doesn't mean Paul automatically gets included in "the preserved word of God". Paul hadn't even been born yet when that Psalm was written.
One minute you are touting the inerrancy of scripture... then you are saying man/Satan has tampered with it. You can't have it both ways.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: whereislogic

Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Son of Jehovah God, who is the Most High he's speaking of as merciful and kind toward the unthankful and wicked, including those who speak badly of Jehovah, the Most High and judge Him as being cruel and/or evil:

Jehovah (YHWH) is not the Most High. YHWH was not merciful and kind towards anyone. The MOST HIGH is, though.

Paul wasn't either. He was too busy talking about himself and promoting his false gospel...and cursing those who didn't believe him.

El Elyon is The Most High, even higher than El the Bull of El and Asherah fame.

El is God. His grandson and rival is Baal/Yahweh whose Mother and consort is Asherah who was worshipped in the Temple until Josiah.

How can Yahweh be Baal when they are rivals?

By changing the name and claiming he isn't. Like Saul becoming Paul the ''apostle."


Baal means Lord or Prince. YHVH is always translated Lord, which could be Adon or Baal, Adon to the Jews, same as Baal.

Also Moloch is the same as Melech without vowels so the Hebrew word for King is named after Molech, god of infant Holocaust.

Yahweh claims he made the Israelites sacrifice their first born, asks Abe to sac. his own son and is a sick puppy.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

you opinion means nothing. We are not Israel n the land nor do they practice that law anyway.

Time to come back to reality or modern times.

Have you read the Torah at all?
Besides, just because the Nicene council decided to include Paul's letters, doesn't mean Paul automatically gets included in "the preserved word of God". Paul hadn't even been born yet when that Psalm was written.
One minute you are touting the inerrancy of scripture... then you are saying man/Satan has tampered with it. You can't have it both ways.

He claims that the Bible is the ''preserved word of God" but only his Bible, whatever version.

Then says that Matthew the Apostle isn't Jesus so when he says their are only 12 Apostles and Revelation and Acts confirm it that it's the tradition of man and not God that their are 12 Apostles.


He likes to have his cake and eat it too.


I am still waiting for his answer to my questions:

1. What IS the "word of truth."

2. How do you ''divide" the word of truth properly.

3. How do you distribute the divisions of the "word of truth."

I asked a week ago but he won't answer.


I assume he means Jew vs. Gentile regarding the division, needless to say this dividing is based on race and not beliefs, like Jews go with the 12 and Greeks/Romans/Nations/Gentiles go with Paul.

That's textbook heresy and I know of no church that teaches this, not even unorthodox cult Christianity.


People place so much faith in the Bible being the last and final/only scripture when the good stuff is all in the Apocrypha and the Catholic Church decided what was Canon but Protestants don't doubt that it is God preserved even though the Romans were as corrupt as it gets and truth was no concern of theirs.

You gotta laugh!

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I don't practice any of that under the gospel of the grace of God.

Godly women know how to behave in church.

No innocent beings or animals are sacrificed today and have not been for millennium.

No one practiced any of the things you mention since the time of Christ. No biblical proof Israel followed the law as a matter of fact it seems they were scattered abroad because they didn't follow God's laws, precepts, ordinances, statutes, judgements, and ways.

You are being illogical seeing no one has practiced any of that for millennium.

try living in this world and stop looking to something that we can never prove even took place.

Godly women know how to BEHAVE in church?
So, a woman needs to behave? I'd ask if you were serious, but I know you are.
Good grief. What about men, Chester? Do they all get a freebie pass on their behavior in church because they are MEN?
Yuck.
By the way, there are still Orthodox Jews in Israel who perform animal sacrifice. I watched a video of one a few years ago. Made me sick to my stomach.... just like your Pauline views on women.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Where is you logic?

You asked me to comment on archaic Israeli rituals and practices and on women from somewhere out of the north forty and I answer in the truth and then you twist it and want to know about men's behaviour.

Good gracious man, where is your wisdom and knowledge you claim to have from reading the bible for 25 years?

Everything is to be done decently and in order any godly person knows that.

why is it you want to try or think that today's does animal sacrifices, and some archaic rules that don't fit today's culture?

And if any one organization chooses not to let women preach so what they have that prerogative because scriptures do speak of such. If other do allow it so what. every man/worker will be judged according too their own work. If we don't like it we can move on to some where we like if we so choose. Free will and choice.

Personally I think you hate Christianity it is the only answer for the direction you have gone in trying to disprove Pau and the preserved word of God

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Of course I have and the first five books of the OT s well as the whole Bible many many times and in many different versions. I own Torah copy as well as a Tanak copy.

I don't agree with any creeds Nicene or other they are not the final word God's preserved word is.

Only ONE bible version is God's preserved word the rest are the works of men and satan tools to confuse people like you. And he has done a great job at it as I can tell.

Please don't put words in my mouth I did not say. Anyone here who has known me for many years here knows my stand on the word of God

originally posted by: Malocchio

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

you opinion means nothing. We are not Israel n the land nor do they practice that law anyway.

Time to come back to reality or modern times.

Have you read the Torah at all?
Besides, just because the Nicene council decided to include Paul's letters, doesn't mean Paul automatically gets included in "the preserved word of God". Paul hadn't even been born yet when that Psalm was written.
One minute you are touting the inerrancy of scripture... then you are saying man/Satan has tampered with it. You can't have it both ways.

He claims that the Bible is the ''preserved word of God" but only his Bible, whatever version.

Then says that Matthew the Apostle isn't Jesus so when he says their are only 12 Apostles and Revelation and Acts confirm it that it's the tradition of man and not God that their are 12 Apostles.


He likes to have his cake and eat it too.


I am still waiting for his answer to my questions:

1. What IS the "word of truth."

2. How do you ''divide" the word of truth properly.

3. How do you distribute the divisions of the "word of truth."

I asked a week ago but he won't answer.


I assume he means Jew vs. Gentile regarding the division, needless to say this dividing is based on race and not beliefs, like Jews go with the 12 and Greeks/Romans/Nations/Gentiles go with Paul.

That's textbook heresy and I know of no church that teaches this, not even unorthodox cult Christianity.


People place so much faith in the Bible being the last and final/only scripture when the good stuff is all in the Apocrypha and the Catholic Church decided what was Canon but Protestants don't doubt that it is God preserved even though the Romans were as corrupt as it gets and truth was no concern of theirs.

You gotta laugh!

"High five", stars and flags to you, bro! I KNOW!!!
It is so ridiculous.
And sad....cause that was me at one time. I attributed the God that entered my world to the Christian one....that's all I knew at the time. I spent 20 plus years in the church....till I got a belly full and decided to go with my heart and gut. Found much of what you have.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Of course I have and the first five books of the OT s well as the whole Bible many many times and in many different versions. I own Torah copy as well as a Tanak copy.

I don't agree with any creeds Nicene or other they are not the final word God's preserved word is.

Only ONE bible version is God's preserved word the rest are the works of men and satan tools to confuse people like you. And he has done a great job at it as I can tell.

Please don't put words in my mouth I did not say. Anyone here who has known me for many years here knows my stand on the word of God

Yea, we all know your stand. So, WHICH version of the Bible is the true one?
You still haven't answered that question... nor, have you answered any of mine.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Using your own words:

1. What IS the ''word of truth?"

2. How do you properly divide it, and:

3. Once divided who is it divided amongst?

4. And who gets what division?

I am aware of the quote you provided but would like to hear you answer those questions without having to quote from Paul, it's not asking much since you have said that the ''word of truth" must be "properly divided.''

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Where is you logic?

Only someone who hasn't any themself asks questions of this nature. M.s. has shown he understands just fine and you must resort to personal accusations stating someone isn't using logic without backing up your statement one bit.

If you ask me Paul's followers don't get it so it's a personal preference to choose only Christ words and the Apostles writings (Paul isn't an Apostle) to live by because Paul is a shady character.

You asked me to comment on archaic Israeli rituals and practices and on women from somewhere out of the north forty and I answer in the truth and then you twist it and want to know about men's behaviour.

Good gracious man, where is your wisdom and knowledge you claim to have from reading the bible for 25 years?

Sounds like he has more knowledge of Paul and the New Testament than most and definitely you. If you ask me.

Everything is to be done decently and in order any godly person knows that.

why is it you want to try or think that today's does animal sacrifices, and some archaic rules that don't fit today's culture?

And if any one organization chooses not to let women preach so what they have that prerogative because scriptures do speak of such. If other do allow it so what. every man/worker will be judged according too their own work. If we don't like it we can move on to some where we like if we so choose. Free will and choice.

Personally I think you hate Christianity it is the only answer for the direction you have gone in trying to disprove Pau and the preserved word of God

Paulis is even Aramaic for deciever. That is just plain true and awesome because it's the same as the Greek Pol.

I was watching a documentary called The Truth About the Bible part 2.


A church has a painting of the 12 Apostles going around in a circle with Jesus Christ above them and at his right hand...was Paul!!!

A Catholic Church, I believe, as they only say Peter was the Rock because Jesus says it but the New Testament is dominated by Paul. Catholic theology depends on Pauline theology to establish its right to have hierarchical clergy of men only and slavery, obedience to human ''authorities'', and most of its pagan concepts, holidays. Original sin, established because of Eve according to Catholic teachings. The Church fathers of the post Nicene church hated women. They were obsessed with celibacy which was never required by the Gospels or the Old Testament, you couldn't be a High Priest without a wife.

according to Eusebius the Ebionim/Ebionites claimed Paul was actually a Greek who converted to Judaism to court the daughter of the High Priest but was denied and embarrassed and this is why he joined the Nazarene sect but they also rejected him.

The last time Paul was in Jerusalem he was submitting to a Nazirite purification ritual of head shaving because of his anti Torah teachings. The Torah was the sacred book of the Israelites so teaching against it is equivalent to heresy in this sect. Better to metaphorically interpret anything that was too cruel or unusual than forsake your heritage. Greeks even liked Hebrew mythology and had been reading it for centuries too so it was a part of the fabric of religious life and any teaching that calls it a "curse that is of the Law" like Paul's needed to be atoned for.

I would have loved to see a headshaved Paul, beat red with embarrassment!!!

This is probably why he hates James, and he is described as being bald in Acts of Thecla.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Where is you logic?

It's right here, right now. That is what I'm using to speak to you and anyone else on here who keeps parroting "it's the preserved word of god, bs".

You asked me to comment on archaic Israeli rituals and practices and on women from somewhere out of the north forty and I answer in the truth and then you twist it and want to know about men's behaviour.

No, you answered with a stereotypical "Pauline" answer...that "godly women know how to BEHAVE in church". Do you not see the condescension of that comment?? Why do women need to behave? Apparently, Paul thought they needed to be put in their place back then...thus, his writing that "it's shameful for women to even speak in church". Why is it shameful, Chester? Why? Cause the way I see it, women have waaaaay more intuitiveness and spiritual antennae than most men do. So, why is there a hierarchy with men at the top and women underneath?
You know why? Cause the Bible was written by MEN, for MEN, and women were classified somewhere in there not much higher than the animals YHWH wanted sacrificed to appease his "wrath" and atone for sin. Go back and read Leviticus if you don't believe me.
That's not "way back from the north forty" either. You are not answering in TRUTH...you are answering illogical because that's what you've been indoctrinated to believe is "truth".
You know, I think you are a decent man....probably had a pile of problems (maybe addictions, etc.), so I GET IT.
Something set you free from all that, gave you a complacent wife (who must not speak in church...cause hey, she'd be violating PAUL'S commandements), but anyhoo....you have it pretty good right now. Blessings right? Life is waaaay better since you grabbed onto that Bible of yours and hung on for dear life. There's no way on god's green earth you are going to deny him now...right?
I get it.
I was sitting right where you are not to long ago. Enough church hoopla and all that comes with that, not to mention my own studies that clashed with "said church hoopla", caused me to take a step back and really DIG into what I was seeing not add up.
And then, "whala!" I found out that most of that book is full of evil things. Not all of it, but yea, a lot of it.
Now, about that "men's behavior" thing you brought up...guess what, men's behavior in "Christendom" has been a WHOLE lot worse than women's...I guarantee you of that. But, that wasn't my point....my point is, WHY are women made underneath men? Why? Do you not think a true Creator of love would value us each equally? That we (women..since I am one) would not have just as valid input as men? Paul didn't seem to think so...since not only were women told to keep their mouths shut in church (or the congregation), but they were also told to "ask your husbands at home". REALLY now?
What if that wife knows waaaay more about spiritual matters or God than the husband does?? So, what's a girl to do?

Guess she just has to keep her mouth shut, hope for the best, and talk to whatever girlfriends she has, huh?
You are seriously clueless, Chester. I don't mean that you are a bad man....just clueless. Especially when it comes to the whole "man/woman" thing.

Good gracious man, where is your wisdom and knowledge you claim to have from reading the bible for 25 years?

One more time...I'm WOMAN, not "man". I have plenty of wisdom and knowledge....and not all of it is from reading the BIBLE. LOL. Most has been through my life journey's. Oh, and being a mother has also showed me much about sacrifice.

Everything is to be done decently and in order any godly person knows that.

REALLY? What part of raising a bunch of kids is done decently and in order?? LOl....you must not have kiddo's!
Do you know what the whole "godly person" label causes in an individual?? Guilt, guilt, and MORE guilt!!!
So, what do people in "the church" do? They HIDE their problems...they HIDE their hurt, they HIDE their "lack of order" in their families... you know why??? Because of the freaking guilt trip that all that dang doctrine puts on them!!!!
Most can't come in and just be REAL or vulnerable. Nope....everyone plasters that fake smile on their face and pretends that they have it all together...when they don't.

why is it you want to try or think that today's does animal sacrifices, and some archaic rules that don't fit today's culture?

Because they DO them today, Chester. They STILL sacrifice innocent animals over there and can't WAIT to build another temple in order to institute the full blown animal sacrifice system again. You don't believe me? Google it the "Third Temple". Those archaic rules are what YHWH told the Israelites they HAD to do. You are correct...it's not in WESTERN Christian culture...but, I guarantee you they still do animal sacrifice in Israel, AND they put women beneath the men.
Did Jesus ever do that?
No, He didn't....but, in today's American Christianity...women are still subject to men. Why?? Because PAUL SAID THEY ARE. Jesus didn't.

And if any one organization chooses not to let women preach so what they have that prerogative because scriptures do speak of such. If other do allow it so what. every man/worker will be judged according too their own work. If we don't like it we can move on to some where we like if we so choose. Free will and choice.

Ahhhh.....just don't have "an OPINION", lol.

Personally I think you hate Christianity it is the only answer for the direction you have gone in trying to disprove Pau and the preserved word of God

Ummm... I've kinda said that already, in too many ways to mention. I (and many others on here) HAVE disproved Paul...and the "Word of GOD" is NOT preserved.
You are worshipping a BOOK....not the Creator.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Of course I have and the first five books of the OT s well as the whole Bible many many times and in many different versions. I own Torah copy as well as a Tanak copy.

I am confused, the Torah/Pentateuch is the first five books so a "Torah copy" would be just the five and a "Tanakh copy" the so called Old Testament.

What is a Torah copy and a Tanakh copy?

I don't agree with any creeds Nicene or other they are not the final word God's preserved word is.

So you don't believe that the words of the Nicene creed are true, man made or not?

You don't believe in the Father, Son and Spirit, 3 Gods who are 1 God?

Only ONE bible version is God's preserved word the rest are the works of men and satan tools to confuse people like you. And he has done a great job at it as I can tell.

Please don't put words in my mouth I did not say. Anyone here who has known me for many years here knows my stand on the word of God

Why are you so mean and nasty? Cheer up for the love of God, I see you insulting people all the time, decievers or decieved, their Bibles are tools of Satan, everything you say is negative and you never say anything kind whatsoever.

I can see Paul has rubbed off on you, you act like most Pauline Christians who think if not their way...Satan.

a reply to: Malocchio

A Catholic Church, I believe, as they only say Peter was the Rock because Jesus says it but the New Testament is dominated by Paul. Catholic theology depends on Pauline theology to establish its right to have hierarchical clergy of men only and slavery, obedience to human ''authorities'', and most of its pagan concepts, holidays. Original sin, established because of Eve according to Catholic teachings. The Church fathers of the post Nicene church hated women. They were obsessed with celibacy which was never required by the Gospels or the Old Testament, you couldn't be a High Priest without a wife.

Yup...and therein lies all the reasons we have pedophilia in the catholic church. Can't have a woman, so gotta chase them altar boys. Uhg.

according to Eusebius the Ebionim/Ebionites claimed Paul was actually a Greek who converted to Judaism to court the daughter of the High Priest but was denied and embarrassed and this is why he joined the Nazarene sect but they also rejected him.

I read that, too.

The last time Paul was in Jerusalem he was submitting to a Nazirite purification ritual of head shaving because of his anti Torah teachings. The Torah was the sacred book of the Israelites so teaching against it is equivalent to heresy in this sect. Better to metaphorically interpret anything that was too cruel or unusual than forsake your heritage. Greeks even liked Hebrew mythology and had been reading it for centuries too so it was a part of the fabric of religious life and any teaching that calls it a "curse that is of the Law" like Paul's needed to be atoned for.

Not only that...but, he had Timothy circumcised, after ruthlessly calling on the carpet Jews who held to circumcision...even going so far as saying, "I hope they emasculate themselves". Like I said, Paul would make a great politician. He was really good at talking out of both sides of his mouth, covering his own butt, and camouflaging it all to look "pretty".

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

He also states that anyone who submits to "the mutilation '' or circumcision is "bound to the whole Law (Torah) or the Mosaic Law. Not just the ten commandments but the whole Law, even though it had long been decided this wasn't necessary for non Hebrew converts.

Essentially a propaganda campaign against ''the circumcision faction."

"who SEEMED to be pillars."

who "added nothing to me" (taught him nothing).

"No marvel!! Even Satan appears as an angel of light." This is about the Apostles when he says it, calling them sarcastically "super apostles." two paragraphs earlier and is calling the pillars of the Jerusalem Church this.

originally posted by: Malocchio
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

He also states that anyone who submits to "the mutilation '' or circumcision is "bound to the whole Law (Torah) or the Mosaic Law. Not just the ten commandments but the whole Law, even though it had long been decided this wasn't necessary for non Hebrew converts.

Essentially a propaganda campaign against ''the circumcision faction."

"who SEEMED to be pillars."

who "added nothing to me" (taught him nothing).

"No marvel!! Even Satan appears as an angel of light." This is about the Apostles when he says it, calling them sarcastically "super apostles." two paragraphs earlier and is calling the pillars of the Jerusalem Church this.

You're preaching to the choir here, dude.. but, yea... I know and I know.