Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Unbalanced? Because I don't hold to the inerrancy of the bible? Okay. Sacrificing animals is not balanced. Telling us to eat them is not balanced. Commanding the slaughter of women, children, infants, and all animals from a group of people, is not balanced. If I see that as wrong, yet because it's in the book, you think it's right, you label me unbalanced. This WHOLE world is unbalanced. Christianity is included in that.

But wait before you lose thought. You are letting your feelings interfere with reality. You see you have a choice as well as everyone has the same choice. You have chosen not to eat animals and I suppose birds and fish as well. Fine, then don't eat them. Does that make you more pure than any who does eat flesh? The very same argument has happened many times before. In 1st Corinthians the disciples had that very same argument. It's not our decision to determine the matter for others. Chester John has said it correctly. God permitted eating meat but did not approve of eating meat. He has a perfect will and a permissive will.

The very same with government. The Hebrews demanded a man king and rejected God as their king. God permitted it but did not want it. Do you want God to step in and take control? That would make God as bad as we are. He gave us this control and you want God to take it back. So if He did do as you wish would that make Him a liar? I did not take the time to look it up but the OT God told t6he Hebrews that He detested sacrifice. But it is out of His hands.

The reason that God approved the slaughter of three thousand men for their part in idolatry of the calf is that these men had taken an oath to obey the Creator and to do as He contracted with them. They had agreed and said that they would do all of which the Creator wanted. And that was before Moses even ventured to meet the Creator. Eating meat had nothing to do with this at all. It was a case of rotted minds trying to overthrow the government of their very own Creator who they signed the contract to obey. Idolatry is the most serious sin against God that exists.

Now you say that only the words of Jesus should be honored because the OT is garbage and Paul is Garbage and even the apostles are garbage. So you would end up with a note book of what you want to believe. Yet you cannot verify any of what you believe because you have to have the writings of Jesus would you not? How do you know what you read is true and that Jesus said this or that? You don't know that to be a fact any more than what Paul said or did. The same people who said Jesus did this or that also say Paul did this or that. Yet you don't believe the same person that writes of both men to be true. I see this on ATS many times over. You pick what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe and then you condemn what you don't want to believe with reasoning's of your own liking. That is idolatry and not dividing the words of truth.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Then you are not a Bible believer but a bible antagonist.

a reply to: Seede

A Star and a thumbs up to ya.

a reply to: Seede

Fine, then don't eat them. Does that make you more pure than any who does eat flesh?

No, just following Jesus' words..."the merciful will obtain mercy". Plus, animals are my friends. I don't eat my friends.

In 1st Corinthians the disciples had that very same argument. It's not our decision to determine the matter for others.

Paul...again. Well, let me ask you this? WHY was it an issue then, as well? So much so, that Paul actually said that one who ate only vegetables had a weaker faith. So, in my book that says.....you have to hurt and kill something (or eat the flesh of animal who someone else hurt and killed) just shows how much STRONGER your faith is, than if you choose not to participate in taking life (if you want to listen to Paul, that is).
Must have been a different sect of Israelites who did not eat flesh (of whom I've read James the Just was one).

God permitted eating meat but did not approve of eating meat. He has a perfect will and a permissive will.

The eating ANIMALS (they aren't just meat...they were alive and aware before they became a slab of flesh).
Guess who brought it up in the FIRST place? "The LORD God" (YHWH). None of mankind would have even gone there if YHWH hadn't said, "here, you can eat them". Jeez. So, YHWH draws the line at idolatry, and slaughters without mercy.....yet, some poor cow, lamb, goat, or whatever is just made fair game for some human's dinner, because GOD said to? Oh, guess God can't be compassionate for those creatures He supposedly created with emotions and pain, to feel everything we do to them. You can't put eating animals back on humans Seede...that was ALL YHWH'S doing by bringing it up in Genesis in the first place. Even saying "NOW I HAVE GIVEN THEM TO YOU TO EAT" (my paraphrase).
That's not even getting into Leviticus and the other places where tons of sacrifices were performed, that according to the TORAH...YHWH commanded them. There was no "permissive will" about it. Now, if you read some of the prophets, there are many times where it seems God never, ever, wanted sacrifice...and it repulses Him. So, either God is "bi-polar", or you have TWO different entities speaking. That's what I see anyway.
If it was only his "permissive will" then that verse in Genesis should have said...."DO NO HARM TO ANOTHER LIVING BEING".
See....how hard is that?
Do you not understand how convoluted all of the defending of the WORD OF GOD sounds. So, if you KNOW it's more righteous and RIGHT to do no harm to an animal, and in the end (or New Jerusalem) there will be no more death (not even of animals) then why not start now? I know why. Most people won't give up the pleasure of eating the flesh of animals. It tastes GOOD. That's it, bottom line. Oh, and "God" said it was allowed.

Now you say that only the words of Jesus should be honored because the OT is garbage and Paul is Garbage and even the apostles are garbage.

Here, let me be a little more clear....I think MUCH of the OT (mainly the Torah, or first five books of the OT, are plagiarized, redacted, and edited in some form or fashion..and basically representing YHWH who was a petty, false, deity.
I think Paul is plain up garbage and an infiltrator and deceiver that Jesus warned us about. I do not have anything against the other apostles. Though, we only have Matthew and John. Neither Mark nor Luke were apostles. James nailed Paul to the wall with his letter. It completely rebuts everything Paul taught in Galations and Romans.
But, Christians will do poodle hoop apologetics to make the two fit together.

You pick what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe and then you condemn what you don't want to believe with reasoning's of your own liking. That is idolatry and not dividing the words of truth.

No, it's trusting the Holy Spirit to show me and not IDOLIZING a book. Actually, I think I am "dividing the words of truth"....whatever the heck that means to you and Chester. I do know this...I have always been a truth seeker...always.
The truth can be found other places. The bible doesn't have the market cornered on it.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Then you are not a Bible believer but a bible antagonist.

Some parts I believe and some parts I don't. So, I guess I'm both.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

So the End comes. All the vegans are up high while the meat eaters are burning in the pit.

A sheep gets all freaked out, "This is retribution? They ate me for crying out loud! Look at all that meat going to waste! I'll show them pay back!" She opens her mouth wide and jumps into the fiery pit.

A lion close by says, "Well that was a dumb move."

A Cow then says, "What? How did you escape the great burning?"

"Oh, I got baptized" replies the lion.

"What?" the cow asks, "How's that?"

"I was walking along a river," the lion explains, "when I came upon two men in the water. One said 'I baptize you for the remission of sins' just about the time I leaped onto his back. We both went under. When I came up, two men on shore with rifles shot me. I died before I could sin again."

"Wow" the cow says, shaking her head, "another one of those cheap grace stories."
------------------------------------------

Sorry I couldn't help it. I read a bunch of Aesop's fables last night.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

So the End comes. All the vegans are up high while the meat eaters are burning in the pit.

A sheep gets all freaked out, "This is retribution? They ate me for crying out loud! Look at all that meat going to waste! I'll show them pay back!" She opens her mouth wide and jumps into the fiery pit.

A lion close by says, "Well that was a dumb move."

A Cow then says, "What? How did you escape the great burning?"

"Oh, I got baptized" replies the lion.




"What?" the cow asks, "How's that?"

"I was walking along a river," the lion explains, "when I came upon two men in the water. One said 'I baptize you for the remission of sins' just about the time I leaped onto his back. We both went under. When I came up, two men on shore with rifles shot me. I died before I could sin again."

"Wow" the cow says, shaking her head, "another one of those cheap grace stories."
------------------------------------------

Sorry I couldn't help it. I read a bunch of Aesop's fables last night.

How do you do that?? You always crack me up, lol. Thanks....I needed a good laugh..really, really, did. LOL.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Just remember what the Lord says about what you have posted here and your complaint and grievances against him.

Eze 35:13 Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.

But remember God's word is true and pure

Ps 119:160 ¶ Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

I love God's word more than anything else

Ps 119:162 ¶ I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

It gives me knowledge and understanding of his ways, even to men like me of simple mind

Ps 119:169 ¶ TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
Ps 119:130 ¶ The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

God has made his word of great importance

Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

so you see no mere reading of God's word to judge him is why the Bible is there. ALL of God's word is very important to a believer none of it shall fail.

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Just remember what the Lord says about what you have posted here and your complaint and grievances against him.

Eze 35:13 Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.

But remember God's word is true and pure

Ps 119:160 ¶ Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

I love God's word more than anything else

Ps 119:162 ¶ I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

It gives me knowledge and understanding of his ways, even to men like me of simple mind

Ps 119:169 ¶ TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
Ps 119:130 ¶ The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

God has made his word of great importance

Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

You know....when SOMETHING (the HS) blew me away with complete joy and love....I had a voracious appetite for the WORD, Chester. Guess where I was drawn? Psalms, the Prophets, and the gospels. That's where the HS lead me and that's where I lived. I ate, breathed, and slept the Bible, pastors on the radio, Christian worship music, etc. I was completely consumed.
The rest of the Bible...nah. Not drawn there. I did read all of it, even Paul's stuff. Most of his stuff was so circular and nonsensical, that I just wracked my brain trying to figure it out. Jesus made complete sense.
The Psalms spoke to me (most of them, anyway) and when I read the gospels, it was like BEING THERE. I would cry just reading them.
Let me explain it like this....you have a picture hanging on a wall that you looked at forever, then one day, you actually can walk INTO that picture and be part of it. That's what happened to me after the HS filled me.
So, if you think I haven't experienced GOD, then you are dead wrong.
If I'm going to be "called on the carpet" for questioning the dang book...so be it. MY GOD is not YHWH....and I do love Jesus. That's about all I need, right?

Oh, and I don't care too much for pastors, Christian music, or church. Still think Jesus is pretty dang cool, though. I just don't see Him the way you do. I think He loved animals and wanted to protect them. I think His Father is NOT YHWH, but Something else so HUGE you can't fit it in a dang book called "THE HOLY BIBLE". There is truth in that book, but there are lies, too.
So, if you think I will be judged for NOT believing in "the book", so be it. I thought all I had to do was believe in Jesus, right?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Paul...again. Well, let me ask you this? WHY was it an issue then, as well? So much so, that Paul actually said that one who ate only vegetables had a weaker faith.

1Corinthians_8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Colosians_2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Paul wrote neither 1st Corinthians or Colossians but is the second party in both MSS.

Are you quite sure that was what Paul said?

TextHere, let me be a little more clear....I think MUCH of the OT (mainly the Torah, or first five books of the OT, are plagiarized, redacted, and edited in some form or fashion..and basically representing YHWH who was a petty, false, deity. I think Paul is plain up garbage and an infiltrator and deceiver that Jesus warned us about. I do not have anything against the other apostles. Though, we only have Matthew and John.

This is what I discussed in my earlier post. You cannot denigrate Torah and believe Torah as being plagiarized, redacted and edited without some sort of presentable evidence. You also should present some sort of evidence that the YHWH imposter of the OT was a lesser deity than the true YHWH of the NT. You have to make up your mind and not be confused. Forget the OT even exists. If it's bogus then forget it. Don't even mention the OT. Don't even mention that old sinner Paul and rip out all references to Paul. Put him in the same boat with the OT and get rid of that which bothers you.

Now lets read John again. John says that Jesus is the Creator. There are no ten commandments or any sort of rules and regulations except what the two apostles Matthew and John tell us that Jesus told someone. My question is this. Did Jesus teach that eating meat was a sin? Did Jesus eat the Passover? Now remember that He is the Creator and believed to be the very Begotten Son of YHWH. Did Jesus sop his bread with meat? Did Jesus eat meat with the apostles after He had been killed? No if or but. Just a straight answer is all that is needed.

a reply to: Seede

Did Jesus teach that eating meat was a sin? Did Jesus eat the Passover?

All I can say to that is NO....I don't think he did. In the gospel of John, Jesus doesn't eat the Passover meal. All the other gospels contradict this.
Jesus went to have a meal with His disciples the day before that actual Passover meal. Anyway, I think that says volumes.
The gospels contradict, as well. Still, I know Jesus, and if any of you can see Him eating a defenseless animal, then you don't really know Him.
Jesus was pretty ticked off in the story of the "money changers". I used to think is was due to the money changers taking more money than they should have, or the people not doing the offerings in the correct way. But, the more I read about Jesus (yes...from extra-biblical sources), the more I realized HE HATED what was being done to those innocent creatures.
If you think otherwise, then you don't really know HIM.

You know what I'd really be impressed with? You, Seede...and you Chester, actually getting out of your "Bible and religion box" and think for yourselves. Meaning...think about what true love is. What is truly merciful and righteous?
You don't kill a defenseless creature...you just don't. If you can't see that, and you want to parrot more bible verses to me, then go ahead. I listen to something bigger and better than that. I seriously do not belong to this world. There is something much better out there that loves us, and isn't blood thirsty or spiteful, or jealous.
He even woke me up one morning, bout 20 years ago, and said "I love you (and my name)".
All I know is...I see more clearly now, than ever before. When I stopped partaking of eating the carcass of an animal that suffered before it died, I really, really, SAW what this world truly is.
Hey, but to each his own.

a reply to: Seede

You cannot denigrate Torah and believe Torah as being plagiarized, redacted and edited without some sort of presentable evidence. You also should present some sort of evidence that the YHWH imposter of the OT was a lesser deity than the true YHWH of the NT. You have to make up your mind and not be confused.

I can, and I have. I don't need to present evidence to you or anyone on here. Though, I have found evidence through my research, to answer my suspicions. That's neither here nor there. You wouldn't take it into consideration anyway. Besides, the work I put into figuring all of my misgivings out, would take to dang long to even explain
I'm not confused...at least not as much as I was before. I'm trusting in my heart telling me what TRUE love is.
If it smells to high heaven of being evil, then, I will not follow it.
I've encountered, spoke to, BEEN spoken to, by a GOOD GOD. He's not petty, nor vindictive, nor a misogynistic jerk, nor a killer of those who are innocent. He's outside this realm. Satan is not the "god of this world"...YHWH is (aka...Allah, etc.)
There is a way bigger picture going and a way bigger conspiracy, than you find in the bible, or in all the prophecy "fear mongering", can't wait for the rapture, bible believing folks out there.
I don't expect you to agree...I really don't. I'm just telling you what I think.

Oh, and if you want to read something interesting, then check out this...contradictionsinthebible.com...

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
THAT'S why the character YHWH and the Father Jesus represented are so radically different in character.

Interesting to see you doing the same thing as Marcion, especially cause the other person attacking and discrediting Paul in this thread tried to use Marcion for this argument:

originally posted by: Malocchio
...Marcion in Rome who started the idea of a New Testament (not the New Covenant, the book) and his version was the first and rejected the Old Testament and the God of Israel. This is when Gospels begin to be quoted from in the early Roman writings.

To which I responded:

Let's see if you got your timing right.

The Bible’s Viewpoint

Does God Change?

ANTHROPOLOGIST George Dorsey described the God of the “Old Testament” as “a savage God.” He added: “Yahweh is . . . utterly unlovely. He is the God of plunderers, of torturers, of warriors, of conquest.” Others have reached similar conclusions regarding the God of the “Old Testament”—Yahweh, or Jehovah. Thus, some today wonder whether Jehovah was in fact a cruel God who eventually changed his character to become the loving and merciful God of the “New Testament.”

Such an idea about the God of the Bible is not new. It was first propounded by Marcion, a semi-Gnostic of the second century C.E. Marcion repudiated the God of the “Old Testament.” He considered that God to be violent and vindictive, a tyrant who offered material rewards to those worshiping him. On the other hand, Marcion described the “New Testament” God—as revealed through Jesus Christ—as a perfect God, a God of pure love and mercy, of graciousness and forgiveness.

Oh, just noticed Seede doing the same thing.

Ecclesiastes 1:9:

9 What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.

Jesus and His Followers Made God’s Name Known

Jesus declared in prayer to his Father: “I have made your name known . . . and will make it known.” (John 17:26) Jesus would undoubtedly have pronounced God’s name on numerous occasions when he read, quoted, or explained portions of the Hebrew Scriptures containing that important name. Jesus would thus have used God’s name just as freely as all the prophets did before him. If any Jews were already avoiding the use of God’s name during the time of Jesus’ ministry, Jesus would certainly not have followed their tradition. He strongly criticized the religious leaders when he said to them: “You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.”—Matthew 15:6.

Jesus set the example in making known God’s name

Faithful followers of Jesus continued to make God’s name known after Jesus’ death and resurrection. (See the box “Did the First Christians Use God’s Name?”) At Pentecost 33 C.E., the very day the Christian congregation was formed, the apostle Peter, quoting from a prophecy of Joel, said to a multitude of Jews and proselytes: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” (Acts 2:21; Joel 2:32) Early Christians helped people from many nations to come to know Jehovah by name. Thus, in a meeting of the apostles and older men in Jerusalem, the disciple James said: “God . . . turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.”—Acts 15:14.

Nevertheless, the enemy of God’s name did not give up. Once the apostles were dead, Satan wasted no time in sowing apostasy. (Matthew 13:38, 39; 2 Peter 2:1) For example, the nominal Christian writer Justin Martyr was born about the time John, the last of the apostles, died. Yet, Justin repeatedly insisted in his writings that the Provider of all things is “a God who is called by no proper name.”

When apostate Christians made copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures, they evidently took Jehovah’s personal name out of the text and substituted Kyʹri·os, the Greek word for “Lord.” The Hebrew Scriptures did not fare any better. No longer reading God’s name aloud, apostate Jewish scribes replaced the divine name in their Scriptures with ʼAdho·naiʹ more than 130 times. The influential translation of the Bible into Latin that was completed by Jerome in 405 C.E. and that came to be called the Vulgate similarly omitted the personal name of God.

Source: The Challenge of Knowing God by Name

a reply to: Seede

You are letting your feelings interfere with reality

Who's reality? Your's? Chester's? NOTurTypical's? Or how bout Disaraeli's or Raggedman's? Basically, you are telling me that my "feelings" are not important, and only the "inerrant WORD of (not God), but the Bible is. Right?
Thanks, but no thanks. I did that same thing for too long. I know better now. God talks to me in all kinds of ways. Too many to name. That God is the reason I started to question everything I USED to believe was true (out of that "holy book").
Once again, though, it's too much to explain to you.
Besides, my "feelings" are what make me who I am, and even better than that...the HS speaks to me and shows me what is truth and what is not.

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
THAT'S why the character YHWH and the Father Jesus represented are so radically different in character.

Interesting to see you doing the same thing as Marcion, especially cause the other person attacking and discrediting Paul in this thread tried to use Marcion for this argument:

originally posted by: Malocchio
...Marcion in Rome who started the idea of a New Testament (not the New Covenant, the book) and his version was the first and rejected the Old Testament and the God of Israel. This is when Gospels begin to be quoted from in the early Roman writings.

To which I responded:

Let's see if you got your timing right.

The Bible’s Viewpoint

Does God Change?

ANTHROPOLOGIST George Dorsey described the God of the “Old Testament” as “a savage God.” He added: “Yahweh is . . . utterly unlovely. He is the God of plunderers, of torturers, of warriors, of conquest.” Others have reached similar conclusions regarding the God of the “Old Testament”—Yahweh, or Jehovah. Thus, some today wonder whether Jehovah was in fact a cruel God who eventually changed his character to become the loving and merciful God of the “New Testament.”

Such an idea about the God of the Bible is not new. It was first propounded by Marcion, a semi-Gnostic of the second century C.E. Marcion repudiated the God of the “Old Testament.” He considered that God to be violent and vindictive, a tyrant who offered material rewards to those worshiping him. On the other hand, Marcion described the “New Testament” God—as revealed through Jesus Christ—as a perfect God, a God of pure love and mercy, of graciousness and forgiveness.

Marcion was a heretic (according to most biblical scholars). He did get one thing right though....he saw through the god of the OT. Unfortunately, he took all of Paul's goobly gop to heart.
He should of just listened to Jesus. You know, "eye's to see, and ear's to hear".
Can you hear HIM (JESUS)?

Let's see if you got your timing right.

Here....I'll give you a pat on the back. Great job at trying to make someone feel stupid. Christians are soooo good at that.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor
Checking the timing was a good way to evaluate his claims. There was no intent to make anyone feel (or even look) stupid.

Oh, btw, is it honest and accurate to say that regarding your view of Jehovah: you, Seede, Marcion, Dorsey, and Malocchio (and many others here) are all on the same page? Since that's more or less what you have been describing or arguing for. You even used the word "loathe" and "evil" earlier to describe your feelings and views of Jehovah.

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor
Checking the timing was a good way to evaluate his claims. There was no intent to make anyone feel (or even look) stupid.

Oh, btw, is it honest and accurate to say that regarding your view of Jehovah: you, Seede, Marcion, Dorsey, and Malocchio (and many others here) are all on the same page? Since that's more or less what you have been describing or arguing for. You even used the word "loathe" and "evil" earlier to describe your feelings and views of Jehovah.

I can't speak for them. Though, I don't think Seede would agree with you including him in that group. Why does it matter? There are a whole group of you and others on here who defend the Torah and YHWH.
Are you going to try and say we are all the same people using different names? LOL. That one cracks me up. This is a "Conspiracies in Religion" subforum. You shouldn't be surprised if there are people on here that see the Bible as having deceptions or deceivers in it.

a reply to: Seede

Are you quite sure that was what Paul said?




Yes....
Romans 14:2

2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.