Pardon Me, But Your Slip Is Showing… aka Mike Rowe v. The Press

a reply to: ketsuko

When I was little my dad used to say.................there goes an educated idiot. I know it works both ways, but the older I get the more I start to understand how true these words are.
I always like Mike Rowe. Very smart man.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I've seen it and heard it in convos many times personally.

I CAN believe that people have a bias against others who aren't college-educated. But my point is, how else would the demographics geeks MEASURE education? When talking about voting, every person has one vote, so the demographics don't even matter, but they parse us out in groups according to every measure possible, so they can feel like they have a handle on things.

Calling someone "uneducated" in the context of demographics is meaningless. Hell, I just went to a tech school and I don't mind at all being considered one of the "uneducated". For Christ's sake! I don't feel inferior or less-than, simply because I didn't attend a college. And NO ONE is going to make me feel that way!

I believe that there is a bias. I just don't think, in terms of demographics, that being called "uneducated" is a insult! It simply means I didn't go to college. I think people have to choose to take that as an insult, the same as they might take "unmarried" as an insult, as if they couldn't find a mate...

I think what really gets me about this election is: we see more of people and the media going after the supports this cycle than I have ever seen in any cycle in my 50 years of life.

Yes, and no one's immune! I saw a story about how Social Media "unfriending" (over who one supports) is at an all-time high. Friends, families and extended families are "unfriending" each other and rifts are forming in families... I can't believe how people let this stuff rule their emotions. I almost started a thread saying that I don't feel that way about anyone here. We have our difference of opinion about who to vote for, and why, but that's not worth losing a friendship, "real" or "cyber".

It just gets worse every election cycle.

It's true. We have to dispel the assumptions, and remember what's important. People are people, regardless of who they support. We're all in this together.

originally posted by: Gothmog
Hey , long time certified card carrying "hold my beer and hey y'all watch this" Georgia redneck here . Dang proud of it. I work for one of the largest tech firms in the universe. Never went to college.Whats wrong with that ?

Star. A person who's proud of himself and won't let anyone tell him who he is (sorry if I have your gender wrong). There ain't a damn thing wrong with that!

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I hear what you are saying. I think sometimes we as people choose to be offended when there is no offence intended.

I don't know how you will take this, but I think you learn more in tech school then you do in collage depending on the degree.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Education is not the be all of knowledge.

Wisdom wins hands down in my book every time.

Which is better?

Having the knowledge to build a nuclear weapon......or the wisdom to not use it?

Experience is another factor. Just because someone has a college degree does not make them an expert in that field. Someone that has 30 years of experience in that same field can run circles around the person that has that piece of paper, but little to no experience in it.

A long time ago, before the Cold War was over, you could find job openings that would say: "College degree or equivalent military experience required."
It was because they knew that the hands on training and years of experience by that person in the military was just as good, if not better, than having a piece of paper that said you just finished school.

Those things dried up. Too many people with degrees raised too much hell about how the people with no degrees were not only getting those jobs, but getting paid just as much as them.

My father saw this too before he retired. He told me just how mad these guys with degrees were. They were very angry.

I have met a LOT of very stupid people in my life that hold degrees. That piece of paper doesn't me Jack to me. The only thing it means to me is that someone spent a lot of money to get a piece of paper that they can hang on their wall.

I measure someones education by what they can do and how well they can answer questions. If a person can show me that they can do the job to my satisfaction, and that they know what they are talking about, is good enough for me to hire them.

I'll never forget when I worked an Union Switch and Signal here in Batesburg. We had one of the engineers come down to the repair shop. He couldn't understand why a circuit wasn't working. We showed him on the schematics why it wasn't working. He went on and on about how wrong we were.....until we made the correct circuit and showed him how it was suppose to work.
Then he demanded to know who the idiot was that designed the circuit........

His name was on the schematic.

He was not the only arrogant asshole that was there. All the engineers were.

But guess who it was that they flew all around the country and the world to fix the trains? Them?

No.......us! Us non-degreed techs.

Why? Because the company knew that our years and years of experience is what keeps the trains running.

A piece of paper is no way to measure someone's "education" or knowledge. The only thing that piece of paper shows is that someone paid a lot of money and got a lot of questions on tests right. Or that they were really good at writing a thesis.

A persons actions and work speaks much more clearly on how "educated" they are.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Do you think someone is stupid if they do not have a degree?

Not necessarily stupid, but I view people without a minimum of a 4 year degree the same as I view high school dropouts because they're the exact same thing... a person that wasn't willing to complete a necessary level of education. Are there jobs which don't need those 4 year degrees? Sure there are, but education is more than job training, it's also teaching problem solving skills, and more importantly social conditioning.

a reply to: seasonal

It's not a perception thing, it's more about how the company views your department. In some companies programmers are hated, because they're seen as a cost center, just like how you mentioned you're seen as a cost center. In other companies (more common in tech fields, but not just those) the programmers are seen as revenue generators. People that generate revenue are liked more than the ones that are a necessary expense.

a reply to: Aazadan

You think apprentices aren't taught problem solving? You would, most assuredly, be wrong. Where did that even come from?

Social conditioning? Care to explain that one? In the process of learning while doing one would most definitely learn how to interact with associates, fellow employees, and the general public. I certainly did. Or did you mean something else entirely?

a reply to: Aazadan

I whole heartedly disagree. College can really help some people out, but it can also be very harmful. I have a degree and learned a lot of different things, but I also saw a lot of indoctrination occurring. Universities are now less concerned with giving knowledge and more concerned with virtue signaling.

Conversely, I have spent time in the work place that have nothing to do with my degree, (in fcat I have never used my degree in a job). I learned tons of stuff there also, except the people there weren't smugly looking down on those that didn't have the same learning experiences as them.

The truth is college can help people become educated, but by no means is it necessary. Some of the smartest wisest people I know didn't even graduate high school. You are entitled to your opinion of people that didn't go to a four year school, but I hope the next time you need your car or roof fixed you don't have to grow crawling to these uneducated people.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
I have 2.9 degrees.I iz az smartaz yu alll.
I am wondering who here KNOWS the difference between INTELLIGENCE and SMART?
The answers will be telling.

Intelligence typically measured in areas like IQ is referring to capacity to learn. In children it measures how much you know against your peers but as people get older and there's more unrealized opportunity to learn it becomes a less meaningful metric. In adults it's a measurement of how quickly you can pick up new concepts.

Intelligence however is really difficult to measure, IQ tests for example (especially for adults) are little more than voodoo. Also, because it's merely a measurement of potential, a person can score very highly in these metrics, but because they don't put time into studying actually know far less in practice than someone who has less intelligence.

Being smart is more a subjective measurement of how much someone knows but is most typically used discipline by discipline. A person can have an indepth knowledge of cooking and come across to apprentice chef's as very smart, but as a mathematician they might only be at a 5th grade level.

Just about everyone who attempts to have a career in a field will have knowledge of something. Someone who is more intelligent will more often have indepth knowledge of multiple fields because they can pick the material up quicker.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Aazadan

You think apprentices aren't taught problem solving? You would, most assuredly, be wrong. Where did that even come from?

Social conditioning? Care to explain that one? In the process of learning while doing one would most definitely learn how to interact with associates, fellow employees, and the general public. I certainly did. Or did you mean something else entirely?

Apprentices are taught problem solving for that specific field. College teaches a wider range (and for the record, I think a 4 year degree isn't broad enough as it is). For example, an apprentice pipefitter will learn all about solving problems within their field, but I take a very different look at it because I'm a polymath and I'm a bit biased towards that (my #1 complaint about society today is that we've embraced specialization and lost the multidisciplinary approach). College tries to give you a broader focus to approach a problem but doesn't always succeed, particularly within the confines of a single 4 year degree.

I don't think college goes in depth in this to the degree that they should (again, most people just use it for rudimentary job training) but there is a lot of value in having multidisciplinary approaches to problem solving. Additionally, it speeds up learning, because the most effective way to learn is to make connections to what you already know. When you know about different fields, you have more possible connections to make.

When I refer to social conditioning, I'm sure you learn how to interact with others as an apprentice on the job, but college goes a lot more into the theory behind certain interactions, explores changing them, and most importantly teaches better communication skills. An apprenticeship will probably just teach technical writing while taking a battery of English courses alongside all the other paper writing classes will (maybe) teach you how to write at length on a subject and that can change how you go about communicating information.

originally posted by: Grambler
The truth is college can help people become educated, but by no means is it necessary. Some of the smartest wisest people I know didn't even graduate high school. You are entitled to your opinion of people that didn't go to a four year school, but I hope the next time you need your car or roof fixed you don't have to grow crawling to these uneducated people.

I'm sure I will. I need to get some car repairs done soon actually. It's good that there are career paths which don't require study, because not everyone wants to do that. At the same time though, the most advances are made by people who have educations, not necessarily just job training. There's more to life than job skills, working, and leisure.

a reply to: Aazadan

Not necessarily stupid, but I view people without a minimum of a 4 year degree the same as I view high school dropouts because they're the exact same thing...

You say that until it's 4AM and and your furnace won't start because of a 30 $ vac switch.

Bet you think the guy who shows up and installs the new switch is a new personal friend. The service tech could have a 32 credit certificate, 2 year, 4 year degree, 6 year degree or just worked the apprenticeship route. Would the level of education matter at 4 am? If so remember all those water pipes just waiting to freeze until the masters degree guy shows up.

originally posted by: seasonal
You say that until it's 4AM and and your furnace won't start because of a 30 $ vac switch.

Bet you think the guy who shows up and installs the new switch is a new personal friend. The service tech could have a 32 credit certificate, 2 year, 4 year degree, 6 year degree or just worked the apprenticeship route. Would the level of education matter at 4 am? If so remember all those water pipes just waiting to freeze until the masters degree guy shows up.

No, I would just think that they know how to do a job that I don't know how to do and be glad that they did it. Then again, maybe if they had an engineering degree they could have been the person to build a more reliable furnace instead of being the guy called out at 4 am.

I count years invested equally, during prospective employee evaluations.

A 4 year journeymen ticket = a 4 year uni degree.

A red seal = master's.

Hasn't failed me yet.

a reply to: Aazadan

Then again, maybe if they had an engineering degree they could have been the person to build a more reliable furnace instead of being the guy called out at 4 am

Keep in mind an engineer already made a faulty furnace.

And if you and your family are freezing and need help, the education level won't matter.

Maybe I am reading your post wrong, but I see back handed remarks inferring people that don't go to college as lesser-drop-outs. As a society we need a balance of white and blue collar workers.

A person can expect a 50,000 to 70,000$ annual income if they don't mind #2 grease and welders burn. And guess what, the company has a real difficult time filling these positions. (cause it is hard work)

a reply to: Aazadan

bahaha. College university was the single biggest waste of time and money in my life. Wasted a lot of money that could have bought a house for my B.S. . And to top it off I am a pipefitter.

College teaches you how to interact with certain types of people. Types of people who need to call a meeting or committee to make any decision. Types of people who are too worried about feelings instead of getting something done. Makes great government workers and society complainers.

My number #1 complaint with society is wasteful education. Most people do not need nor want excess education. I doubt my coworkers could find ukraine on a map, write a paper arguing for weed legalization, or solve logic proofs. But guess what, teaching them that stuff adds nearly 0 to society. The great part about this day and age is that if someone wants to learn the basics of something they can learn it online or order the book online.

tl:dr Being forced into a sociology class, an intro into religion class, and a "how the white man oppressed others" class to get a degree is a giant waste of money

Speaking of degrees and education, when I was going through my multi media phase I noticed that the a majority of instructors were literally teaching the classes out of the books. No hands on experience was being shown, but the instructor was literally nose deep in the book reading off from the pages, pauses and all, trying to teach us the program we were enrolled in. Either Flash, Photoshop, or video editing. Only 1 or 2 were actual professionals in the field that were teaching the students the programs or languages.
So there you go. Not only is the education spotty at best, and down right crap at its worst, but the instructors aren't even properly educating the students in their desired fields. What's the saying? Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach?

a reply to: jellyrev

Totally agree with this.

Where my husband works, he is actually at the level where he does need his degrees. He is at the level where having that specialized knowledge to help interpret the hows and whys and set out directions for the lower rungs is necessary.

However, most of the workers where he is at are at the GED, high school diploma, associates level and they do some highly technical work. The key is that they don't have to understand the hows and whys so much. They just have to maintain the proper technique and be able to follow the directions in order to do what they do.

The only difference the educational levels provide is that depth of understanding.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

For the press this cycle, it does. Don't even try to say otherwise. This attitude is even on display with certain posters here on this board.

Oh hell yeah "uneducated" is used as a pejorative, here.

Mike is pretty awesome, both feet planted on the ground.

He's totally right. Reminds me of an episode of Frasier where his toilet is broke and calls a plumber who happens to be a guy that bullied him and Niles in school.

Turns out, he makes more than Frasier.

Anyway, there is 1 poster here on ATS that is very educated in at least 1 subject, it's a fact, but I wanted to ask them, "did you miss that class or something?" (different subject)

My bud just moved back to the states to finish a MA degree in lit. That will make #4 or 5, not sure. lol, great smart guy and we have no problem communicating.

He was a Bernie supporter, poor guy, but I have him voting Trump, he's at peace, now.

Sometimes the brainy ones need guidance from us "uneducated".

Come to think of it, I'm the least educated of all my friends!