Origin of Non-human knowledge in antiquity

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: intrptr

I find your lack of choices disturbing...

I agree. There was also the "sit in the marketplace and allow strangers to offer advice (Babylonian custom) - there's probably a number of others.

As to oracles, they can be bribed and can famously be misleading.

Seriously what is wrong with you guys, how would that not come under the second category?

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: zinc12

There is no such thing as non-human knowledge.

Well that is your personal thought but the ancients clearly say they obtained some knowledge from the gods, and gods are clearly not human.

originally posted by: zinc12

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Maybe people were smarter than you give them credit for, maybe they were more intelligent than we are
Your assumption is a little arrogant

Self knowledge is the first category and knowledge of others is under the second category so what do you mean by people were more intelligent then I think and I am being arrogant, it is true they were more intelligent then modern peoples, modern peoples lack comprehension, depth of thought.

What would make you think they had outside help, maybe they didnt, maybe they were smarter than you think
Its almost as if you are suggesting they were all cavemen

But then maybe divination, who knows, its possible, just over reacted

a reply to: zinc12

Interesting idea, but I don't think it's true that only one group ever consults with some higher power. Perhaps many don't in the same way, but a lot of people pray about various issues, even for knowledge.

I'd say a concern that something could be demonic is a valid reason to not try and "channel" some sort of being.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: zinc12

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Maybe people were smarter than you give them credit for, maybe they were more intelligent than we are
Your assumption is a little arrogant

Self knowledge is the first category and knowledge of others is under the second category so what do you mean by people were more intelligent then I think and I am being arrogant, it is true they were more intelligent then modern peoples, modern peoples lack comprehension, depth of thought.

What would make you think they had outside help, maybe they didnt, maybe they were smarter than you think
Its almost as if you are suggesting they were all cavemen

But then maybe divination, who knows, its possible, just over reacted

Hmmm, I wonder if it is in the air or in the water.

Yeah so as said solving the problem themselves would come under the first and second category mentioned in the OP.

I see your primary interest is consulting what you call "Daemons". Its your third choice, but all consuming.

Ingesting some form of toxin to induce trances to become engaged with entities that 'tell you stuff'...

Good luck wth that in the long run.

a reply to: intrptr


Nope jumping to conclusions, I have no interest in consulting with daemons, I don't practice magic and I don't take drugs. I studied the theory of ritual magic but I believe in the path of yoga.

My point is to highlight that humans have said they have acquired specific types of knowledge through such methods.

In Vedic text for example the knowledge of pyramidal architecture, the whole science of vasstu was acquired from the daemon Maya.

originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: intrptr


Nope jumping to conclusions, I have no interest in consulting with daemons, I don't practice magic and I don't take drugs. I studied the theory of ritual magic but I believe in the path of yoga.

You did say you 'studied' it. I found the post interesting nonetheless. Hadn't considered the reference to cain and able that way before.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: intrptr

The gnostics had figured out that the god of the old testament was a deamon also.

originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: intrptr

The gnostics had figured out that the god of the old testament was a deamon also.

And we all know who wrote the Old Testament.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: zinc12

The story of Icarus the son of Daedalus is such a tale, an ancient man (or people) gained too much knowledge and it led to tragedy,

However, that's only in Western (European) tradition. In Eastern (Chinese, Japanese) tradition, those who "gained too much knowledge" are welcomed into the heavens as a new god. And Egyptians deified people who were unusually wise (Imhotep comes immediately to mind, but there are others.)

Excellent point and it is easy to forget that I am myself biased by the tradition's I have grown up in but yes there are other world view's and belief's.

a reply to: zinc12

go and read this book Supernatura l by Graham Hancock.

Its a fascinating read and will teach you that we don't need a god or devil or the likes to get knowledge of higher beings.

originally posted by: Dimirszadex
a reply to: zinc12

go and read this book Supernatura l by Graham Hancock.

Its a fascinating read and will teach you that we don't need a god or devil or the likes to get knowledge of higher beings.

I'm not sure what you mean, Graham's book is about how ancient man used drugs to induce states in which they could communicate with gods/daemons.

So your saying we don't need gods/daemons to get knowledge of gods/daemons?

originally posted by: zinc12

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: intrptr

I find your lack of choices disturbing...

I agree. There was also the "sit in the marketplace and allow strangers to offer advice (Babylonian custom) - there's probably a number of others.

As to oracles, they can be bribed and can famously be misleading.

Seriously what is wrong with you guys, how would that not come under the second category?

It's actually not the same. The "marketplace" model meant that anyone could give advice, including a lot of people who didn't know anything about law, medicine, etc, etc.

In addition, there is the practice of asking lunatics and clowns (the sacred insane) - who don't fall into any of your categories.

originally posted by: zinc12

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: zinc12

There is no such thing as non-human knowledge.

Well that is your personal thought but the ancients clearly say they obtained some knowledge from the gods, and gods are clearly not human.

a reply to: zinc12

Mhm. Demons have been 'counseling' us since the garden. In the ancient times, it used to be common to hear the gods. Nowadays, much less-so.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: zinc12

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: intrptr

I find your lack of choices disturbing...

I agree. There was also the "sit in the marketplace and allow strangers to offer advice (Babylonian custom) - there's probably a number of others.

As to oracles, they can be bribed and can famously be misleading.

Seriously what is wrong with you guys, how would that not come under the second category?

It's actually not the same. The "marketplace" model meant that anyone could give advice, including a lot of people who didn't know anything about law, medicine, etc, etc.

In addition, there is the practice of asking lunatics and clowns (the sacred insane) - who don't fall into any of your categories.

I see so asking "other people" in the market wouldent come under the cathgory of asking other people, and neither would lunatics/clowns because they are not people.

a reply to: Marduk

I made it clear in the op that consulting metaphysical , non physical beings is not equivalent to consulting extraterrestrials, physical beings from other star systems.

Clearly the oracle in the video is not an extraterrestrial. You could argue that it is psychological self hypnosis but that would not negate the fact that those consulting such people truly believe they are communicating with gods/daemons.
My point being that when ancients say they obtained knowledge from gods people need not jump to extraterrestrials to understand this. Much of the ancient aliens belief came from people making note that several ancient cultures say they obtained various civilising knowledge from communicating with the gods, the use of metals is often noted as such a knowledge.

originally posted by: zinc12

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: zinc12

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: intrptr

I find your lack of choices disturbing...

I agree. There was also the "sit in the marketplace and allow strangers to offer advice (Babylonian custom) - there's probably a number of others.

As to oracles, they can be bribed and can famously be misleading.

Seriously what is wrong with you guys, how would that not come under the second category?

It's actually not the same. The "marketplace" model meant that anyone could give advice, including a lot of people who didn't know anything about law, medicine, etc, etc.

In addition, there is the practice of asking lunatics and clowns (the sacred insane) - who don't fall into any of your categories.

I see so asking "other people" in the market wouldent come under the cathgory of asking other people, and neither would lunatics/clowns because they are not people.

There's a difference between asking expert opinions and asking for inexpert opinions/the sacred loons. If you want to lump it as "asking everyone" then I suppose you can, but you get different results going to a consulting psychic and hanging out in your local psychiatric care facility.

originally posted by: Byrd

There's a difference between asking expert opinions and asking for inexpert opinions/the sacred loons. If you want to lump it as "asking everyone" then I suppose you can, but you get different results going to a consulting psychic and hanging out in your local psychiatric care facility.

Yeah, but which ones are the loons?

Harte