A work or die mentality doesn't work. Why we deserve a basic income.

originally posted by: BoxFulder
I disagree because the economy will fall apart, why work at all if you don't have to? It will stagnate innovation and take away motivation to succeed. Its like why people are on welfare for generations.

I've worked at soul sucking jobs like fast food, retail and such and the reality is, they kill innovation and the work or die mentality really only creates enough motivation to do just well enough to not get fired. Yes, there are people who like doing jobs like that and take a great deal of pride in them, but they are exceedingly few and far between. A standard living wage would not provide luxury, it would just mean that everyone could eat and have a roof. If you want more than that, you still have to work. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor that cares about helping people than a doctor who became one because of the six figure income. Same goes for a teacher, rather have someone who wants to educate than someone who wants a job with summers off.

Also, people are on welfare for generations not because of the usual excuse of a low minimum wage, but because the cost of living is outrageous. If a standard living wage was implemented, then a standard rent and cost of food would also have to be put in place, which, if the government is footing the bill, I can guarantee would be a lot lower than it currently is. I can't possibly be the only person who thinks that a gallon of milk costing more than a gallon of gas is ridiculous, especially with how big the farming and agricultural industries are in this country.

I just think human condition restricts us from ever living in a cashless and/or basic payday. We gotta take an evolution step or two first. Good luck...

Even if there was a utopian society. I bet it would still have homeless people...

Everyone always talks of greed. Although it is an important one that causes ills, envy and vanity are by far the worse of the lot. Get rid of those and you will get closer to that utopia. Problem with that is we wouldn't be human anymore.

a reply to: Benicealways

I am sorry to be a jerk, but to say a work or die mentality is inhumane is mind boggling.

Life is inhumane. Death is inhumane.

We live on an inhumane planet, in an inhumane solar system, in an inhumane galaxy, in an inhumane universe.

It is not fair.

Nothing is fair.

I like your thread, and your attempts to correct reality, but wow ... can it be corrected?

When my kids tell me "Life is not Fair" ... I just say 'yep', because it isn't.

I don't like the inhumanity and unfairness. Please do not flame me for supporting such things ... just they are as inescapable as entropy and chaos. Inhumanity and unfairness just happen.

Respect.

a reply to: Benicealways

I won't question your stats on food production, but...
- what about food distribution?
- food sales, marketing, warehousing, store stocking, etc?
- who will make the goods other people want. Give the masses free money and they'll start buying more of everything, but there will be nobody to make it. People are allowed to want items that you feel are luxury items. Who are you to decide what people can have?
- when nobody can make the goods people want and supply runs low prices will skyrocket. Then what good is your basic income?
- who will build homes, roads, cars, generate electricity (and the equipment to do it), etc?

These threads are infuriating. Every single one of them is written by a lazy person who wants something off the backs of others. These basic incomes have to come from somewhere. Where will that be? The government? Because they get money from taxes and fees that will dry up pretty quickly when nobody is paying income taxes, or fewer people are. Oh I know, you can pay income tax on your basic income...see the problem there?

What is it about you people that makes you think you deserve something for nothing? Why? What makes you more special than your parents or grandparents? What makes you so fancy that you can be a leech on society instead of a contributor?

You keep saying how everything would be automated or done by machines. Where do you even live? 99.999% of the work in this world is done by people. A portion of it is automated, and everything that is automated is maintained, operated, controlled, and built by people. Your idea that people will sit at home and create is loony. Maybe a percentage would, but you can't claim with any credibility that the majority would. That's pure speculation based on what you want yourself. People lazy enough to expect a basic income aren't going to be so ambitious to contribute something back. And what are they contributing anyway? A painting they made with spaghetti sauce and macaroni glued around the frame? Ooh its so creative. They aren't contributing things that people need or want.

I have a lot more to say, but T&C...It's people like you that are the problem. It's the "living wage" crowd and the "give me $15/hr to lift fries from a fryer" crowd and the "I should own a part of my employers business just because I'm the janitor" crows that is the problem with society today. This world needs more people with ambition and heart and drive and a will to succeed.

We see this in action with Obama Care. My insurance went up $300.00 per month and that doesn't include co-pays. I pay $1000.00 a month just for the privilege of carrying the blue cross card and I hardly use insurance.

The intention was young people would sign up and the system would work and lower costs for all of us. Problem is, the penalty is cheaper than the insurance so theses young people didn't comply. These are the same snowflakes that want free collage but have no idea who is going to pay for it.

Here is the argument. "Healthcare should be free, lets vote for that!" So they got what they voted for and now they are saying "I am not paying for that! I don't need it!"

So I am paying an extra $300.00 a month for the sorry sap that sits on his can all day dreaming and smoking weed and in a creative burst of stupidity, decides to do a cannon ball off the garage.. This is the same guy that voted for Obama but demands the rest of us pay for his ideology..

originally posted by: Benicealways
A work or die mentality is inhumane.
It wasn't really so much at the time wherein 80-90% of the people had to work 8 hours a day on the land to feed all the people, or when hunter-gatherer societies worked 4-6 hours a day to feed themselves, unless you just physically couldn't.

But now, after a industrial revolution and a 100 years of technological development, it takes barely any work to provide people to basic goods.
And we see this in developed countries like the Netherlands where just 2% of the people work on the land (though they also import some food), and with self-driving tractors/trucks this can go down to 0.1% and less.

So at this point, to force people to have a work or die mentality, to force people to work implies 1 huge assumption:
-Everyone should value more material luxury over the freedom to be yourself (and create your own mental/bonding/spiritual luxury).
Another important thing as to why a basic income would create more abundance and not less; 90%+ of the people wants to do more with their live than to consume the basics, they want to create, play, discover, work together, help others if people may do it their own way.

Not to mention the income inequality this work or die mentality brings has detrimental effects on society:

There is no law or rule saying that anyone has to work. It is also not illegal to not work. If you want to eat then, you will have to find food on your own. Probably plants or small animals. You don't need a house, you could easily find a place you can camp. But no one owes you anything including a life. Yes...you have a right to it, but you therefore have a responsibility to provide it. You can either chose not to and die, or you can work for a living...be that something you are paid for or work you do to feed and shelter yourself.

originally posted by: JimmyJones63
We see this in action with Obama Care. My insurance went up $300.00 per month and that doesn't include co-pays. I pay $1000.00 a month just for the privilege of carrying the blue cross card and I hardly use insurance.

The intention was young people would sign up and the system would work and lower costs for all of us. Problem is, the penalty is cheaper than the insurance so theses young people didn't comply. These are the same snowflakes that want free collage but have no idea who is going to pay for it.

Here is the argument. "Healthcare should be free, lets vote for that!" So they got what they voted for and now they are saying "I am not paying for that! I don't need it!"

So I am paying an extra $300.00 a month for the sorry sap that sits on his can all day dreaming and smoking weed and in a creative burst of stupidity, decides to do a cannon ball off the garage.. This is the same guy that voted for Obama but demands the rest of us pay for his ideology..

Absolutely! And that person will continue to vote for those like Obama because it saves them from working and being productive. And guess what? THAT WAS THE PLAN TO BEGIN WITH! You don't think Obama and the progressive left knew this going in? You have to pay for this leech and he will vote for you to continue doing so.

Perfect example of why the left sucks. Everything the left does is exactly the same. Climate change...take money from the corporations and keep it for themselves. Welfare...more votes. Free college...same deal. They are counting on the working class to stay quiet and not react. Well...do you still feel like keeping quiet? I gave up on that about a year ago. I fight against the left in my own way and as small as that is...I'm one of about half the country. And it is starting to hurt them. Look at all the eyes opening and how their plans fail and show their true colors.

Now...the biggest problem is the 50% of the country that support these people. They are more of a problem than Obama and Hillary. They are they enemy more so than any of our "leaders".

I'm so tired of the same old standard "the poor are lazy" phrase that's is repeated and repeated even though it has absolutely no basis in fact.

Most of the poor are disabled, elderly and children. As for the adult poor, most are working poor.

The jobs being created now do not pay enough to feed and house a family. Out of the millions of poor, there are maybe a few thousand unfilled tech jobs - what about the 99% of people left? The few middle class jobs left are being filled by the friends and family to the exclusion of someone with better skills.

Funny if it's a social service the rich use, it's not welfare but a "function of the government" .Is police, fire or the military welfare? A seven foot tall muscular guy probably needs less protection than a scrawny billionaire, so why should he pay? I don't support wars, so why do I have to pay?

Things like fire, schools, and roads benefit society as a whole. Everyone probably spends less money providing for these programs than it would costs them if it didn't exist.



Providing a safety net, would improve society by providing a needed insurance policy . If you think you or your children would never need any help, you are like the crazy drunk driver who thinks they are perfectly sober.


Go visit a country with mass starvation and homelessness. It's not a nice place to live - even if YOU had a million dollars.

Take it from someone who actually been homeless, living just on basic food and housing isn't a fun and pleasant way of life. There's still plenty of motivation to work.

Well since you seem to think that you Deserve a basic income I'd like to know who you think should work to provide you with the income for you to be a lazy worthless noncontributor to society, because contemplating the universe would seem to be something only some of us deserve while others have the right to provide you with it.

a reply to: Benicealways

But again it comes from the wrong assumption that when people are allowed shelter and food for free + some basic necessities they would lose their ambition.

I am telling you the opposite would happen; people would be ecstatic to be truly free and do what they love with a driving passion that parts waves.

And it is in fact in your best interest if everyone is happy and has the freedom to be himself, this type of greed of not wanting people to survive if they don't participate in the endless desire for more luxury is already what is causing huge amounts of crime, mental illness, social mistrust etc.

THIS ^^ IS PRECISELY TRUE.

a reply to: DonVoigt

Well since you seem to think that you Deserve a basic income I'd like to know who you think should work to provide you with the income for you to be a lazy worthless noncontributor to society, because contemplating the universe would seem to be something only some of us deserve while others have the right to provide you with it.

Wow. You just really typed this?

"Lazy worthless noncontributor" --- you just actually said that.

News flash, dude. Benice is correct. I have been unable to attend to my home and yard for a few years due to lack of funds. I became depressed, and indifferent....when I finally was allowed to spend the money to work on the house, I became so energized and bouncy and happy that you'd hardly have recognized me.

originally posted by: Fowlerstoad
a reply to: Benicealways

I am sorry to be a jerk, but to say a work or die mentality is inhumane is mind boggling.

Life is inhumane. Death is inhumane.

We live on an inhumane planet, in an inhumane solar system, in an inhumane galaxy, in an inhumane universe.

It is not fair.

Nothing is fair.

No life isn't naturally inhumane. Even if you don't believe in the spiritual "helping each other stuff", you need to understand evolution requires a system of things that work in harmony with each other. Many animals work in groups and according to evolution humans became successful because we could communicate and work with each other.

A group that works and help each other will be far more successful than one that competes against each other. Look how successful America became because it ASSUME everyone was born with certain rights.

Go to any third world country, it's not a nice place to live even if you had money.

This whole concept can be seen today in the very low birth rates in most industrial countries. This low birth rate is directly effecting everything from housing to pension funds.

originally posted by: schuyler
Unfortunately, for YOU to get this "Basic Income" requires ME to work. I'm not particularly interested in providing you all this freedom to be yourself when it is at my expense. No one else owes you anything just because you were born. You don't "deserve" anything. You need to, one way or another, pay your own way and not be a burden to everyone else. I don't really care how you do this or how well you do this. You will be rewarded according to your effort. That some people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth is irrelevant. That happens in every society that has ever been. It doesn't change the basic issue that for you to be free I must be enslaved.

robots don't go shopping

modern societies and economies will have to deal with this problem in the next 10-20 years

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Your happiness and good feelings does not give you the right to demand that somebody else work to pay for your lazy but.

originally posted by: DonVoigt
Well since you seem to think that you Deserve a basic income I'd like to know who you think should work to provide you with the income for you to be a lazy worthless noncontributor to society, because contemplating the universe would seem to be something only some of us deserve while others have the right to provide you with it.

there are lots of ways to pay for it, you could stop corporate welfare, tax off shore corporate profits, not build $27 billion dollar walls that won't work, not build a $400 billion jet that can't fly, go to single payer healthcare, it wouldn't just come from citizen income taxes necessarily. There are a lot of ideas out there if you care to look

a reply to: DonVoigt

what?

Wow. My lazy butt?

ok... not even biting. wow. Did you subsidize me? Did you bring home enough money to do the necessary repairs on the house? Did you make the investment in repairing my home, which is the one thing that is tangible and physically valuable?

Did you?

DID YOU pay for me to fix up my house?





No?

a reply to: Benicealways

Someone has likely already said this. No time to read all the pages.

The problem lies in who does the work and do those too lazy to do their share deserve anything at all from those who just take?

The infirm, the elderly, the mentally challenged, they deserve our help. The lazy though, deserve the fruits of their own work, which is nothing. If their own families chose to carry them on their backs, that's OK, but they deserve nothing from those who do their fair share.

The key word is "fair". Is it fair to expect others to do all the work while just laying around and not even trying to contribute? Hell no it's not fair. It's just lazy people trying to scam society and take advantage of others.

Give everyone basic handouts and you destroy them. It's actually abuse to do so. It just teaches people to be lazy and worthless to society.

Now those who are in need do to no fault of their own, yes help them out and raise my taxes to help pay for it as long as it really goes to deserving people. Lazy people unwilling to try? Nope.

a reply to: syrinx high priest

So your mentality is still, " take it from someone else so that I can have it.". Get a job

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It's not my job to WORK to provide your lazy but with MONEY to pay for repairs to your home. Get a job and earn it like I do

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: DonVoigt

what?

Wow. My lazy butt?

ok... not even biting. wow. Did you subsidize me? Did you bring home enough money to do the necessary repairs on the house? Did you make the investment in repairing my home, which is the one thing that is tangible and physically valuable?

Did you?

DID YOU pay for me to fix up my house?





No?

I'm sorry that you have been through hard times, but it seems your experience must help you to realize the good feeling that comes from accomplishing something. It's a good feeling, right?

I have worked since I was 16. I put myself through college and raised a family. My husband passed away at a young age. Young enough that we had not even considered life insurance, etc. Still - I worked, really hard. I am proud to have managed to support my family, fix up my home as needed, helped to put my son through college. I even managed time for some volunteer work. I had no financial help from anyone. It feels good. It makes me proud. I did that!

See how it works? You work, you feel good about accomplishing something, you can take care of yourself and your family, and sometimes you can even afford to have some fun. But there are also ways to have fun without spending money.

You must see this. Working is good for us. Knowing that we are independent and taking care of ourselves feels good. Knowing that you are contributing to society feels good.