A work or die mentality doesn't work. Why we deserve a basic income.

A work or die mentality is inhumane.
It wasn't really so much at the time wherein 80-90% of the people had to work 8 hours a day on the land to feed all the people, or when hunter-gatherer societies worked 4-6 hours a day to feed themselves, unless you just physically couldn't.

But now, after a industrial revolution and a 100 years of technological development, it takes barely any work to provide people to basic goods.
And we see this in developed countries like the Netherlands where just 2% of the people work on the land (though they also import some food), and with self-driving tractors/trucks this can go down to 0.1% and less.

So at this point, to force people to have a work or die mentality, to force people to work implies 1 huge assumption:
-Everyone should value more material luxury over the freedom to be yourself (and create your own mental/bonding/spiritual luxury).
Another important thing as to why a basic income would create more abundance and not less; 90%+ of the people wants to do more with their live than to consume the basics, they want to create, play, discover, work together, help others if people may do it their own way.

Not to mention the income inequality this work or die mentality brings has detrimental effects on society:

I disagree because the economy will fall apart, why work at all if you don't have to? It will stagnate innovation and take away motivation to succeed. Its like why people are on welfare for generations.

This could be one of those ideas that is counterintuitive. It could actually boost the economy.

How?

Well, how many people stay in a middle of the road job just because they need the security instead of taking the leap with the big idea they have been nurturing for years?
How many folks can't take the time off to learn a trade like plumbing or electrical installation because they need the income their full time job supplies?

Or the people that really want to go into science? It's awful money for the most part. I worked on the railway and earned more than a research chemist with a PHD can expect.


We could be looking at a high wage society where most people pay income tax, where everyone can afford to buy things that are taxed...where even a min wage job like working in a care home can pay a decent wage when the basic income is considered.

Unfortunately, for YOU to get this "Basic Income" requires ME to work. I'm not particularly interested in providing you all this freedom to be yourself when it is at my expense. No one else owes you anything just because you were born. You don't "deserve" anything. You need to, one way or another, pay your own way and not be a burden to everyone else. I don't really care how you do this or how well you do this. You will be rewarded according to your effort. That some people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth is irrelevant. That happens in every society that has ever been. It doesn't change the basic issue that for you to be free I must be enslaved.

a reply to: BoxFulder
Because people want to do more than just sit and have the basics.
Sure, it might be fun for a week or two but at some point you want to do something with your life, and this is naturally present in children in you pay attention, but it gets beaten out of them because we tell them you have to do this boring ass job or you should starve.

People like to create, innovate, help, work together, play, participate etc.
Sure, when people work a job they don't like that tires them because they are not being themselves, all you want to do is be nurtured and just sit and recover from that horrible experience by eating fastfood and watching TV.

a reply to: Benicealways

Then, by your own definition, those that have been on welfare the longest, should be the most creative.

Survival of the fittest allows the weak of the species to be weeded out naturally.

Support the weak and you wind up with the modern society.

No matter how you pretty it up with "civilization", the laws of nature still apply.

a reply to: schuyler

What about if it proved to actually be cheaper for you? If you had to pay out less in tax?


In much the same way as people on the left often oppose the idea of a flat tax (even when shown it will raise more revenue) This system could actually result in paying less tax on your income (Because everyone, or nearly everyone would be paying in and you'd also be receiving your own basic income).


just a thought. I'm not saying you are wrong. You make a valid point and one that I find myself agreeing with in principle.

a reply to: schuyler
No it doesn't require you to work if you don't want to.

In this day and age most of the work that would go into basics would be done by machines anyways and so you just need a small % of the population who would like to do it.

But again it comes from the wrong assumption that when people are allowed shelter and food for free + some basic necessities they would lose their ambition.
I am telling you the opposite would happen; people would be ecstatic to be truly free and do what they love with a driving passion that parts waves.

And it is in fact in your best interest if everyone is happy and has the freedom to be himself, this type of greed of not wanting people to survive if they don't participate in the endless desire for more luxury is already what is causing huge amounts of crime, mental illness, social mistrust etc.

a reply to: DBCowboy

People who are on welfare are often doing creative and charity work for the society yes.
But most welfare systems are not quite like this and force people to look for jobs that are not dare or force them to do charity work in the society.

originally posted by: Benicealways
when hunter-gatherer societies worked 4-6 hours a day to feed themselves, unless you just physically couldn't.

I'd like to see a source for that figure.
Just harvesting firewood without modern tools takes hours.
Tracking and hunting a wild animal can take days.
Have you ever started a fire without matches or a lighter?
These things are not easy and are very time consuming.
These statistics that hunter gatherers only worked 4-6 hours a day doesn't seem realistic to me. I would think a hunter gather society would spend just about all day everyday searching for food and avoiding anything that would regard them as food.

Now in regard to the rest of your OP. Income inequality exists because not all people are equal. I hear this basic income argument a lot these days. Basic income would be a giant welfare system. One thing we have learned about things like welfare is that it actually breeds poverty. Creates an entire class dependent on the system. Essentially the further destruction of the individual.

People need to be given a means of developing and growing as an individual. Given the chance to raise above their peers to do amazing things. Not this cookie cutter hive mentality where everyone is assigned an income. Where is the incentive to achieve great things if i get payed the same no matter how I perform?...

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
Survival of the fittest allows the weak of the species to be weeded out naturally.

Support the weak and you wind up with the modern society.

No matter how you pretty it up with "civilization", the laws of nature still apply.

so as far as you are concerned, if people can't support themselves, let them die off....got it

a reply to: JAY1980

Sources:
Hans-Joachim Voth (2000) Time and work in England 1750–1830, Chapter 5, Comparisons and conclusions pp. 242–5

Cohen, Yehudi (1974). Man in Adaptation: the cultural present. Aldine Transaction. pp. 94–95. ISBN 0-202-01109-7. In all, the adults of the Dobe camp worked about two and a half days a week. Because the average working day was about six hours long, the fact emerges that !Kung Bushmen of Dobe, despite their harsh environment, devote from twelve to nineteen hours a week to getting food. Even the hardest working individual in the camp, a man named =oma who went out hunting on sixteen of the 28 days, spent a maximum of 32 hours a week in the food quest.

And no, welfare does not create poverty, quite the opposite, America has the most poverty of the first world countries and the least welfare, whereas the more social countries have virtually no poverty.

And while it's true that some welfare systems remove the incentive for work, because by working a job the people don't make any extra, this simply would not happen with a basic income.

And again, people love to work and do something productive they enjoy, and also, most people want more material wealth than just the basics.

Nevermind


Dorian Soran 2.0v

I don't even know where to begin with this OP.

What the heck has happened to our society?
Are some people really so delusional and lazy that they think they should get a free ride and be supported on the backs of others who keep the world going? Yes, I guess they are.

You get out of your life what you put into it.
We are raising generations of people willing to be enslaved by being dependent on government just so they can be unproductive members of society.
In doing so, they will never know the self satisfaction that comes from making their own way in the world.

No, you do not deserve to get something for nothing. You don't deserve anything just for being born.

.

Also most people seem to forget that jobs are disappearing at an enormousness speed due to the exponential technological growth.

Watch what happens when one truck driving company has their first self-driving trucks.
Watch what happens when the first fast food chain starts to automate their whole business, forcing all other business to do the same (which they could have done 20 years ago but were to afraid because of the bad PR it would bring because of this outdated 'work or die' mentality).

We would produce the same kind of wealth with less work, thus no need for everyone to work in the first place.

a reply to: BoxFulder

Because some people don't want basic income and don't like paying more than their fair share. Take for instance someone who likes exercising but hates going to the gym. They decide to work harder, earn more income, then build a bigger home with a home gym with all the equipment. Then they get told, wait a minute, you earned a lot more money than most people so you should have to pay a lot more tax. The person with the home gym then gets pissed. Why am I working so hard to support everyone else. Why can't we all just have a basic tax rate just like a basic income rate then. He then gets told no, that's not fair. You must pay more tax. You see, by working harder and building a bigger home, you increased the basic standard of living so we have to catch everyone up some.

so as far as you are concerned, if people can't support themselves, let them die off....got it

It's not "as far as I am concerned", it's the law of nature.

The welfare state is an artificial construct.

If individual people want to pool resources and support those who can't support themselves, I'm not against it. I just don't like being forced to do so myself.

If I choose to support those in my family or circle of friends who are unable to live on their own, that's MY business.

Don't assume that just because you're okay with your resources being forcefully taken from you by some "benevolent" government to be distributed as they see fit that everyone else is.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen

so as far as you are concerned, if people can't support themselves, let them die off....got it

It's not "as far as I am concerned", it's the law of nature.

The welfare state is an artificial construct.

If individual people want to pool resources and support those who can't support themselves, I'm not against it. I just don't like being forced to do so myself.

If I choose to support those in my family or circle of friends who are unable to live on their own, that's MY business.

Don't assume that just because you're okay with your resources being forcefully taken from you by some "benevolent" government to be distributed as they see fit that everyone else is.

The law of nature would also allow someone to kill you an take your resources. We live in an artificial construct already.