Deuteronomy 21:21: Kill disobedient children

That same "murderer", however, was just YHWH. He told us he would stop murdering and start forgiving when the time came. But, not everybody understood. All didn't have the "law" in their DNA, yet. The new DNA would spread over time to more of the population, so that in the future, more people would understand. So, Jesus just left the "message" with men, and told them to "Preach the Gospel" to all the world. As the Gospel spreads, the new DNA also spreads, and those with the right DNA immediately recognize the truth in Jesus' message when they hear it, because it "matches" with what is already inside them.

a reply to: AMPTAH

So, can you pleeease tell me how YHWH is loving, patient, kind, keeps no record of wrongs....yada, yada (as Paul defines love)...and a murderer at the same time? (because god is LOVE...right?) While we're at it...why don't you tell me how Paul can call curses down on those who don't believe "his gospel"? Um, I don't think Jesus ever...and I mean EVER cursed anyone.
On top of that, YHWH had to murder his own son (or allow him to be), to placate his wrath to let the guilty go free. Whoo wee!!!
Such an awesome god! Seems a little incompetent in my book. Why all the theatrics anyway?
You know what I think? We DO have the "DNA" as you call it, of what is right and wrong, already indwelling us from birth.
It's the Cosmic law of Right and Wrong.

. So, Jesus j

. So, Jesus just left the "message" with men, and told them to "Preach the Gospel" to all the world. As the Gospel spreads, the new DNA also spreads, and those with the right DNA immediately recognize the truth in Jesus' message when they hear it, because it "matches" with what is already inside them.

Can you honestly tell me what HIS message was, "san's Paul's crap"? I'm dead serious. Explain what Jesus said and did, with out Paul's BS. I really want to see what you come up with...really. Gospel means "good news" by the way. So, what was Jesus' good news?

a reply to: AMPTAH

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Oh yes they did murder Jesus. He laid his life down, because he was able to take it back up again. He KNEW they were going to kill him.
Ask yourself this ONE HUGE important question...WHY did they kill him?? Scratch the indoctrination you've been fed....WHY did they want him dead? God didn't need to prove a point to a bunch of dumb arse priests who wanted to keep their power.
WHAT did Jesus do and say that spooked them so bad? You REALLY need to know the answer to that question. You also should find it on your own.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

So, can you pleeease tell me how YHWH is loving, patient, kind, keeps no record of wrongs....yada, yada (as Paul defines love)...and a murderer at the same time? (because god is LOVE...right?)

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every
purpose under the heaven:" -- KJV, Ecclesiastes 3:1

Can you honestly tell me what HIS message was... Explain what Jesus said and did, ...So, what was Jesus' good news?

Jesus did things that demonstrated that men did not know everything. So, that men would understand that there was more to this world than that which they could see and understand with in their current state.

That was just to get their attention. Then he left the message that some would be saved, along with the "signs" that would indicate to those that could understand how to tell if a person was saved. By their actions, you can tell if they are not saved. By your own understanding, you can get peace knowing. You can't speed up, nor slow down the process. But, you can get mental peace just knowing what will be.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. " -- KJV, Matthew 24:13

Let's stop the war on Christianity.

Free Andrea Yates!

a reply to: AMPTAH

Jesus did things that demonstrated that men did not know everything. So, that men would understand that there was more to this world than that which they could see and understand with in their current state.

We still don't know everything. I'm sure back then they wondered about a lot, as well.
You haven't really answered the question. I know the "Christianese" answer. WHAT did Jesus actually teach that upset the priests? What did Jesus actually do, that upset them?
Christianity teaches that the scribes and Pharisee's were legalistic and teaching manmade traditions on top of the Mosaic law. That would be true. But, here's the kicker....YHWH WAS legalistic. There were so many laws, rules, orders of death for the slightest infraction, laws regarding the "clean and unclean"...etc., that the priests running the temple were doing EXACTLY what the Torah told them, along with the oral traditions they had passed down.
Go read the OT and see what I mean. Read Leviticus. That should give you an idea of how blood thirsty and legalistic YHWH was/is.
Then, here comes Jesus, who went against every single one of those said "laws". Jesus even contradicted the law of YHWH by saying things like, "you have heard it said, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you, do not resist him who is evil...." Just read Matthew Chp. 5. Most of that chapter is Jesus contradicting YHWH'S laws. So, how could Jesus have followed the law perfectly? He not only didn't follow them, he also taught the opposite of them.
Not only that, but Jesus REALLY ticked off the priests and scribes when he made a whip and drove all the people selling animals AND the animals out of the outer courts right before the Passover. If you read the different accounts in the gospels, this enraged the priests and elders.
Jesus totally flipped upside down, all the control the priests/elders had over the people. The reason so many were AMAZED at his teachings, was because it was totally antithesis to the laws of YHWH.
Which brings us back to the original OP.....stoning unruly children. Christians can perform all the apologetic mental gymnastics they want with it (and do), but bottom line is, THAT WAS A COMMAND from YHWH. Yet, the Father that Jesus represented was completely different in character. Jesus said, "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father". Not that he was "god in the flesh"....he was filled with the HS and the WORD of the Father dwelt in him. So, everything coming out of Jesus' mouth and every miracle he performed....was spoken/done by the Father. That's why Jesus constantly gave the credit to his Father.
So, tell me....how is the Father of Jesus the same as YHWH???

Oh, and something else to consider.....HOW could Jesus forgive sin, if he hadn't actually shed his blood on the cross yet?? Remember, the Christian doctrine (according to Paul), is that there is NO forgiveness unless you have accepted Jesus as your "lord and savior". There is NO forgiveness without the shedding of blood. (which ties into YHWH ordering the sacrifice of innocent animals and ties into Paul's "the blood of Jesus" cleansing us from our sin.
What about the water baptism of John the Baptist? Why was John baptizing people and they were being forgiven of their sin....BEFORE Jesus even came on the scene??? Now you understand that's why Jesus asked the Pharisee's the question, "was John's baptism from heaven or from men?"
He flipped it right back on them, because they wanted to know "by what authority was he doing these things?" What things? He was doing everything OPPOSITE to YHWH'S laws. John was baptizing with WATER....not telling people to go to the temple and sacrifice an animal. He was offering a DIFFERENT way to repent and be forgiven. Jesus NEVER condoned animals being sacrificed...he hung out with all the sinners/outcasts/women. He was compassionate on those YHWH would have rejected.
So, can you see WHY Jesus was so radical to the people??? Can you see WHY the chief priests and elders plotted to kill him?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

So before Jesus all humanity is condemned because Jesus hadn't died yet, hmmmm

Also your comprehension about the laws is flawed gf, Jesus said the laws were made for mankind, the Pharisees turned the law into fundamentalism
YHWHs laws were never meant to be so rigid, man made them brutal

Go study the bible

Jesus knew the laws and how they should be applied because He gave mankind the laws

So before Jesus all humanity is condemned because Jesus hadn't died yet, hmmmm

a reply to: Raggedyman


I never said that. I said that there was forgiveness of sin, BEFORE he died on the cross. There are even instances in the OT where God offered forgiveness by simply repenting and turning back to God.
So, why the need for Jesus to be a blood sacrifice?
John was baptizing people who were repenting and they were being forgiven of sin. So, once again, why did Jesus need to be a blood sacrifice?
Which is what I was pointing out....Christianity makes it all about the cross and the "blood of Christ cleansing us from sin".
Then, you have Paul preaching nothing but grace...of which Jesus never taught or even used that word. Jesus taught TWO things...Love God with all of you, and love your neighbor as yourself. He said ALL the law and the prophets hinged on those two commandments.
I don't see a whole bunch of love in YHWH ordering a man to be stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or the genocide of whole groups of people...down to the infants and animals, as well. Oh, but if the Israelites saw a woman who was still a virgin, they could take them as spoils of war.
Or, how about Moses coming down from the mountain with the 10 commandments (one of which is "thou shall not kill/murder"), then because they worshipped the golden calf, this occurs....
Who is on God's side?" (Exodus Chapter 32 verse 26)

Moses asked, and the Levites stood beside him. He then ordered them to

"kill your brother, friend, and neighbor." (Exodus Chapter 32 verse 27)


He then announced that this was the day of the institution of the Levitical priesthood because by killing their brothers, friends, and neighbors,

"you have brought a blessing this day upon yourselves." (Exodus Chapter 32 verse 29)

Umm...ok, so it's ok to kill if YHWH orders you to. Just ignore that commandment "do not kill" when it's convenient to YHWH.

YHWHs laws were never meant to be so rigid, man made them brutal

See above, RM.

Jesus knew the laws and how they should be applied because He gave mankind the laws

Ohhhh....so, in the OT, Jesus commanded women stoned if caught in adultery OR given a bitter herb to drink and if her stomach swelled and rotted, she was guilty, breaker's of the Sabbath stoned to death, unruly children stoned to death, women to be raped by being forced into marriage after being taken as a spoil of war (after her whole family is slaughtered), animals to be slaughtered by the hundred of thousands to cover the sins of the people OR just because it was a sweet smelling aroma to YHWH.
I could go on and on.
Maybe it's you who should go read your bible. And I'm not your "gf".

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: AMPTAH

So, tell me....how is the Father of Jesus the same as YHWH???

"Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." -- KJV, Isaiah 43:7

Every being in the universe is created by ONE LORD, even those called by "my name" LORD.

Oh, and something else to consider.....HOW could Jesus forgive sin,

Here's the paradox you have to figure out.

If YHWH says the time will come when all will be "forgiven" , even "all sin".

Then how can the previous law "eye for an eye" be maintained together with "forgiving".

Can you "forgive" someone, and still require "their eye for your eye" ?

YHWH said he would forgive. It was written in the LAW that the Pharisees had in their scriptures.

Yet, when JESUS came, and did exactly that, starting forgiveness, the Pharisees couldn't recognize that this was the same YHWH's law that was in their books already.

They had become so "tuned" to doing "rituals", that they forgot what the rituals were there for.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Here's the paradox you have to figure out. If YHWH says the time will come when all will be "forgiven" , even "all sin".

Then how can the previous law "eye for an eye" be maintained together with "forgiving".

Can you "forgive" someone, and still require "their eye for your eye" ?

It can't, and no. That makes absolutely no sense...and it's not a paradox. It's ridiculous.

YHWH said he would forgive. It was written in the LAW that the Pharisees had in their scriptures.

Oh yea, YHWH would forgive if you brought an innocent animal to the priests to butcher. Or, if you did everything he commanded...like kill, rape, and pillage.

Yet, when JESUS came, and did exactly that, starting forgiveness, the Pharisees couldn't recognize that this was the same YHWH's law that was in their books already.

LOL...no, they were ticked off that Jesus was hanging out with the very ones YHWH excluded (women, deformed people, those riddled with demons, tax collectors, sinners, etc.) And Jesus threw a HUGE wrench into their very lucrative animal sacrifice business at the temple.

They had become so "tuned" to doing "rituals", that they forgot what the rituals were there for.

NO, they were doing exactly what was commanded by YHWH in the Torah!
Here is what he told the priests/elders..........
John 8:42-47New King James Version (NKJV)

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

The one's running the show, the Saducee's/Pharisee's/Scribes worshipped YHWH and followed his laws. Jesus just told them WHO that really was.

They had become so "tuned" to doing "rituals", that they forgot what the rituals were there for.

The rituals were put there BY YHWH. For goodness sakes, can't you see that the Father that Jesus represented is NOT YHWH?

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: AMPTAH

The rituals were put there BY YHWH. For goodness sakes, can't you see that the Father that Jesus represented is NOT YHWH?

So, if your Father beats you one day, and forgives you the next day, these must be two different Fathers?

Moses book of law was lost and that's not surprising given that Moses wouldn't have had printing presses while walking the desert for 40 years. 2 Kings 22 tells the lost book was latter found by a priest called Hilkiah in 639-609 BC but some scholars argue the deuteronomic code of deuteronomy differs in tone and narrative style from the preceding four books of the Pentateuch (Source), So I'd be suspicious of Deuteronomy being recreated from the minds of politically motivated priests given that even Genghis Khan might be kinder to disobedient children than God if Deuteronomy is correct. The way I look at it is that any book that pushes fear instead of love is not spiritually motivated.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Not really, just one father with differing aspects to his personality.

However, there is no denying the plurality of 'Gods' in the Old Testament. We cannot just accept thet the "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." is some kind of abberation, where God spoke in the plurality just for the sake of it or a mistranslation...because it isn't.

I have tried to read as many versions of the OT as possible, with my limited knowledge and understanding of the bible. It's hard work, to say the least and I haven't even looked at the New Testament. In my mind, there is the God who created everything [although, again, I don't believe that He created everything in existence] and there is the jealous, scheming...and quite insane...God who hoodwinked people into following Him alone, to the detriment of their health and safety.

a reply to: Profusion

In my opinion, these verses depict a time in history that was brutal and required more than we could possibly imagine in order to survive. These extreme laws were given in order to preserve the Israelites as a people and a civilization. Without them, they probably would have all died out and the civilization ended.

In the previous chapter of Deuteronomy 20, we see the Israelites being commanded to kill the surrounding pagans that were committing "detestable" acts in the name of their pagan gods...

Deuteronomy 20:16-18

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 32 explains this in more detail. I find it helpful to read the surrounding chapters to get a better understanding of what's being said and why.

Deuteronomy 32:45-47

45 When Moses finished reciting all these words to all Israel, 46 he said to them, “Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. 47 They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.”

As corrupt and "detestable" as the world is today, we're about to witness where all of it leads when we don't put an end to it. Civilization as we know it will never survive by continuing to go down this road we're on.

originally posted by: Profusion
Having the Bible recommend killing disobedient children is entirely new to me. Can someone explain how Christians and Jews rationalize it?

By following the command given to Christians as found in 2Tim 2:15, I know this is not for any Christian, living at any time, by rightly dividing the word of truth, the Holy Bible, we see this is one of many commands, statues, precepts, and laws for "ALL ISRAEL" while they were in the land, given them by Moses.

Mal 4:4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

No Christian could ever justify practicing this verse today.

Israel today will not do this because they are secular. And if it is practiced in the Millennial Kingdom it is because they are commanded to do such from God.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor So, can you pleeease tell me how YHWH is loving, patient, kind, keeps no record of wrongs....yada, yada (as Paul defines love)...and a murderer at the same time? (because god is LOVE...right?)

Paul was speaking of Charity not Love. Things that are different are not the same.