Why We Should Not Be Transitioning Children.....

I accidentally stumbled onto an article about the newest addition to "Orange is the New Black", the hit Netflix series, Ruby Rose.

www.looper.com...

In the article she in advertantly makes an excellent case for not taking medical action nor swapping a child's gender identity.



I can't seem to get my phone to copy paste for some reason...


But anyway, in the article section called "she considered transitioning", she goes into detail about how she fantasized about being a boy for years..event slept on her front to inhibit breast growth, but then she grew out of it..



If that is even some what normal, then there is no way people should be transitioning children who could easily change their minds later. Unless it is a situation where the vast majority of cases DO NOT change their minds AND we invent some definative test.


Adding quote...

a reply to: JoshuaCox
Can you provide an example of children being "transitioned?"

As far as I know it has not happened yet, but TPTB do seem to be getting ready for it.
www.dailymail.co.uk...< br /> www.dailymail.co.uk... n.html

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The article doesn't say at what age she "grew out of it". Was it before puberty? There is a link in the article to another article where she praises Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for allowing their daughter Shiloh to dress and live like a boy. She said her mom let her do that, and it was great for her. Remember, children before the age of puberty don't take any drugs or have any sex reassignment surgeries.

a reply to: Phage

9 inspirational stories of transgender kids and their supportive parents

Here ya go bro

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: JoshuaCox
Can you provide an example of children being "transitioned?"

Lol, children are stripped from family at a young age and placed in schools. Parents also force them into sunday school, let them watch TV, play sports, etc.

Why not further indoctrinate kids along or against their natural grain of identity, before they are old enough to understand?

originally posted by: imod02
As far as I know it has not happened yet, but TPTB do seem to be getting ready for it.
www.dailymail.co.uk...< br /> www.dailymail.co.uk... n.html

There are more than a few adolescent transgender folks in the U.S. There is a documentary now airing on HBO channels called "Get Suited" www.getsuitedhbo.com...

In the bit I saw there was a 13 y.o. that was getting suited for His Bar Mitzvah in which He was accompanied by His Grandmother. If I were to wager on anyone having 'second thoughts' it would be this particular person. While sitting and talking w/the tailor, He is clutching a stuffed toy making sure that everyone knows the bears name is "Elliot"..

Here is some more re: this documentary www.thedailybeast.com...

Please, we've been through this before, Mr. Cox. We discussed it on one thread and then you went and created an new thread on the same topic and now this? If you don't have transgender children, please stop spreading your fear because your attitudes are doing nothing but making already difficult lives harder and please stop trying to interfere with parents and children.

Listen to the professionals, the parents and the children, not to celebrities.

Mental Health of Transgender Children Who Are Supported in Their Identities

Transgender Kids Show Consistent Gender Identity Across Measures

Strangers unite over their transgender children

For transgender kids, support is key to emotional well-being

Difficult Conversations

Gender Identity Development in Children

The End of the Desistance Myth

Tons of informative short videos:
Kids in the House



This is an hour long and a little dated but it is an endocrinologist at a medical symposium. He makes a mighty powerful argument for early intervention. I doubt you or anyone will watch it and it is a bit dry but I love this guy.



And here are some parents.



Watch this one without getting choked up, I dare you!

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The article doesn't say at what age she "grew out of it". Was it before puberty? There is a link in the article to another article where she praises Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for allowing their daughter Shiloh to dress and live like a boy. She said her mom let her do that, and it was great for her. Remember, children before the age of puberty don't take any drugs or have any sex reassignment surgeries.

There have been more than a few argue to swap children as young as 4 and start hormone blockers as young as 9-10.

a reply to: Freija

You shouldn't be doing things to kids when you have less than a 50% successful diagnosis rate....

There is NO way a 4 year old could impart that much information.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The article doesn't say at what age she "grew out of it". Was it before puberty? There is a link in the article to another article where she praises Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for allowing their daughter Shiloh to dress and live like a boy. She said her mom let her do that, and it was great for her. Remember, children before the age of puberty don't take any drugs or have any sex reassignment surgeries.

There have been more than a few argue to swap children as young as 4 and start hormone blockers as young as 9-10.

What do you mean "swap?"
Do you understand the purpose of delaying puberty?

While many would paint me as a die hard liberal on GLBT issues, this is one place where I agree that it would probably be best to allow kids to mature more before making life altering modifications.

As a kid I knew little about sexuality. I knew little about gender identity. I didn't care about that type of thing. I grew up in a "normal" environment, learned about social roles, and matured into the person that I am today. I am a product of my experiences.

Allow kids to grow up "normal," then if they still feel the need to transition after maturing, they should be accommodated without the repressive restrictions that they face today.

originally posted by: ReprobateRaccoon

...Allow kids to grow up "normal," then if they still feel the need to transition after maturing, they should be accommodated without the repressive restrictions that they face today.

You've been relatively supportive and well informed in other threads but what you and others fail to realize is that for some of these kids, there is no chance to "grow up normal". They will refuse to go to school, are non-functional and want to go to heaven they are so profoundly unhappy and depressed. Parents often live in fear after finding their children with knives or scissors attempting to fix the things that should have never been. These children are suffering. Nobody approaches this lightly or without damn good reason.

I know you are capable. Please have a more informed approach and try to learn more about the lives and needs of these kids and what their parents and families go through. Check my post history or discuss things privately with me if you wish. I advocate for transgender kids and their families and work to support them because I know what growing up trans is like and don't want any child to go through some of the things I did as a kid.

Please.

originally posted by: Phage

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The article doesn't say at what age she "grew out of it". Was it before puberty? There is a link in the article to another article where she praises Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for allowing their daughter Shiloh to dress and live like a boy. She said her mom let her do that, and it was great for her. Remember, children before the age of puberty don't take any drugs or have any sex reassignment surgeries.

There have been more than a few argue to swap children as young as 4 and start hormone blockers as young as 9-10.

What do you mean "swap?"
Do you understand the purpose of delaying puberty?

from some quick googling the purpose of delaying puberty is to counter early puberty, like in a 5 year old. pcbs, hormones in food etc likely causing or contributing to the phenomena. using the same medical procedures to delay puberty based on some intangible feelings of a confused child wouldnt be the primary purpose or use.

and like others have posted, children are highly suggestable. how can you really trust what a child claims to think or feel. is it not possible that sex ed in a school suggesting that there are actually many more sexual orientations than just male or female is contributing to the confusion?

please dont pick apart this post for what you feel is the weakest part to argue against and selectively quote, thanks in advance.

originally posted by: snarfbot

originally posted by: Phage

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The article doesn't say at what age she "grew out of it". Was it before puberty? There is a link in the article to another article where she praises Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for allowing their daughter Shiloh to dress and live like a boy. She said her mom let her do that, and it was great for her. Remember, children before the age of puberty don't take any drugs or have any sex reassignment surgeries.

There have been more than a few argue to swap children as young as 4 and start hormone blockers as young as 9-10.

What do you mean "swap?"
Do you understand the purpose of delaying puberty?

from some quick googling the purpose of delaying puberty is to counter early puberty, like in a 5 year old. pcbs, hormones in food etc likely causing or contributing to the phenomena. using the same medical procedures to delay puberty based on some intangible feelings of a confused child wouldnt be the primary purpose or use.

and like others have posted, children are highly suggestable. how can you really trust what a child claims to think or feel. is it not possible that sex ed in a school suggesting that there are actually many more sexual orientations than just male or female is contributing to the confusion?

please dont pick apart this post for what you feel is the weakest part to argue against and selectively quote, thanks in advance.

If anything I would guess it is far less specifically political content, and far more over thinking parents, who mean well, but...

A 5 year old isn't watching the news, and should be just as likely to latch onto some totally not sexual fictional character type thing, which subconsciously becomes their ideal image.


At least in the misdiagnosed cases.

I don't doubt that there are legit brain wiring issues That can cause the full spectrum of sexual identity and orientation...but I totally doubt a 4 year old could relay that information....

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: ReprobateRaccoon

...Allow kids to grow up "normal," then if they still feel the need to transition after maturing, they should be accommodated without the repressive restrictions that they face today.

You've been relatively supportive and well informed in other threads but what you and others fail to realize is that for some of these kids, there is no chance to "grow up normal". They will refuse to go to school, are non-functional and want to go to heaven they are so profoundly unhappy and depressed. Parents often live in fear after finding their children with knives or scissors attempting to fix the things that should have never been. These children are suffering. Nobody approaches this lightly or without damn good reason.

I know you are capable. Please have a more informed approach and try to learn more about the lives and needs of these kids and what their parents and families go through. Check my post history or discuss things privately with me if you wish. I advocate for transgender kids and their families and work to support them because I know what growing up trans is like and don't want any child to go through some of the things I did as a kid.

Please.

Yes but you don't realize is there is no way to know if they will grow up to be "normal" aka not actually trans....or if they will turn out to truly be trans...

No way to know at all...

There is no physical test.

Drs have a horrible diagnosis rate....only a 20% success rate by the (flawed, but only measuring post) only study done...


There are plenty of examples of people who realized they were actually gay not trans, but thought they were trans..


So let's start swapping children.....(sarcasm).

originally posted by: Phage

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The article doesn't say at what age she "grew out of it". Was it before puberty? There is a link in the article to another article where she praises Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for allowing their daughter Shiloh to dress and live like a boy. She said her mom let her do that, and it was great for her. Remember, children before the age of puberty don't take any drugs or have any sex reassignment surgeries.

There have been more than a few argue to swap children as young as 4 and start hormone blockers as young as 9-10.

What do you mean "swap?"
Do you understand the purpose of delaying puberty?

I have a hard time trying to understand why one would delay. This whole topic is to me is so confusing I don't know what to think, over night men want to be woman, they want a new set of equality for acknowledgement, this and that and the whole oh yeah science agrees check out this link etc etc.

I truly don't know what to think about all this, I think nurture over nature, men have been born with all the sex organs of a female and they do not identify anything other then male and have a catastrophic potential to have children if they become pregnant

Why is this not part of the Trans arguement mental health or nature effed up?



either way i don't get this at all. Enjoy!

I thought that it was pretty bad and dangerous to put kids on hormone blockers. That's true isn't it? That one little boy with the show "My name is Jas" has been on them and still is. I wonder what is the long term effects.

originally posted by: jasminnne
I thought that it was pretty bad and dangerous to put kids on hormone blockers. That's true isn't it? That one little boy with the show "My name is Jas" has been on them and still is. I wonder what is the long term effects.

GnRH analogues (puberty blockers) are not dangerous compared to the alternatives of doing nothing and are fully reversible if withdrawn. Should this treatment be stopped, normal natal puberty will take place. When you were a teenager, how would have you felt if your voice deepened and you grew facial hair and muscles? (assuming you are female) Puberty blockers are not given until the beginning of puberty or Tanner stage 2 and only after counseling, therapy and professional evaluation for the child and their parents and siblings. They cost around $20,000 per year and in most cases, are not covered under insurance.



Alternatives to the implant, hormone blockers can be taken orally or by injection but still cost $12K to $15K per year. Adults undergoing HRT therapy also take a drug called spironolactone that blocks the production of testosterone or they can opt to have a bilateral orchiectomy (removal of the testicles)

Jazz Jennings is not a boy.



Neither is Corey Maison



Neither are thousands of transgender girls like her.



Typically, hormone blockers are only given for a couple of years at the beginning of puberty to prevent it before switching to HRT (estrogen for transgender girls and testosterone for transgender boys) so that kids can develop the secondary sexual characteristics of their peers. How would you like to have been a pre-pubertal 17 year old? Not too happy, I would imagine.

Our OP here, while generally supportive regarding trans issues, has strong opinions about blocking puberty and allowing children to socially transition but has no actual experience with trans youth, their needs or what they go through. I do and work with organizations like Gender Spectrum that has a lot of informative info on their resources page. This is not his first post on this very same subject. Please see information and my replies to that post to learn more.

Transgendered children: should a parent be able to chemically alter a child's sex?

If you have the time, watch the video above from an endocrinologist. It explains a lot and why helping these kids in the best way possible is so important to them and gives them the best possible chance to grow up and be healthy, happy and productive adults. Is this therapy appropriate for all children? No, but is imperative for those when it is BUT, it is up to the kids, their parents and their doctors to make that decision, not someone on an internet forum with no or very poor understanding of the issues involved. I guarantee if his daughter was trans, he would feel differently.

Here's a 15-year-old transgender girl. Not a boy by any stretch.


ETA: When young children prior to puberty transition, no medical treatments are involved other than counseling and therapy. A change of clothing, hair style, name and pronouns are all that a social transition involves. At puberty, blockers can be used allowing a few years for a child additional time to mature emotionally. Undergoing the effects natal puberty can be extremely psychologically damaging, be very costly to correct and condemn a person to residual physical issues that can be very distressing. Hormone therapy can begin at 14 to 16, depending on the situation and the person and although less reversible, it can still be done. Sex reassignment surgery is very rarely ever performed before a person is 18.

You could always hear it from one of the kids directly:

a reply to: Freija

Ah, I didn't know it was fully reversible. About Jazz, I thought they were born male and have a penis. That is why I called them a boy.

Does all it take to be a woman is long hair and dresses and liking pink? That's not what being female is and any man can wear a dress and get fake breasts, that does not make them female. I think that's kind of insulting to actual biological women. I am trying to understand this way of thinking....If I cut my hair short and wear a suit am I male?