Society is forced to be accepting of gays & transgenders.

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

just fyi, when you are being "included" in an event, etc...that is the opposite of discrimination.

Being forced to include ones self in an event, when said event is against one's religious beliefs, is discrimination.

originally posted by: DeadFoot

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

"No, it isn't discrimination to not want to participate in a wedding that is against someone's religious beliefs. In fact, it's discrimination to try and force someone to participate."

It seems like you do not know what discrimination means, that's why you look so clueless.
*snip*

So you support lawsuits and discrimination charges against these bakers?

No w who is violating whose rights?

So you're using an example of a man making a demand for a cake that they don't offer as a "violation of rights" simply because it coincides with your group-think ideology as well.

You need to fall of the partisan spectrum immediately and start thinking for yourself. Seriously.

Anyone who is still bringing up "cake drama" every time someone talks about LGBT issues needs to seriously get a hold of themselves.

They offer cakes with messages, so they cannot refuse that one. Discrimination works both ways.

If they want to refuse, then no one can demand a Christian baker make a cake for a gay wedding. Fair is fair.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

just fyi, when you are being "included" in an event, etc...that is the opposite of discrimination.

Being forced to include ones self in an event, when said event is against one's religious beliefs, is discrimination.

Well in my religion it's not ethical to allow black people to eat.

So therefore I should be allowed to refuse black people food in my public business, right?

You really don't get it.

a reply to: DeadFoot

No one refused any service at all. Bakers didn't refuse to sell to someone who was homosexual; they simply didn't want to provide a wedding cake. That's participation in something against the religious beliefs of a lot of people. Force Muslims to make the cakes.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

just fyi, when you are being "included" in an event, etc...that is the opposite of discrimination.

Being forced to include ones self in an event, when said event is against one's religious beliefs, is discrimination.

No it's absolutely not what discrimination means.

Sorry you can't accept when you are wrong. Sometimes it's best to humbly stay quiet and move on instead of ridicule oneself

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: DeadFoot

No one refused any service at all. Bakers didn't refuse to sell to someone who was homosexual; they simply didn't want to provide a wedding cake. That's participation in something against the religious beliefs of a lot of people. Force Muslims to make the cakes.

You are ridiculous and you give a bad name to Christians worldwide.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

If you are a business that sells stuff, you are not "participating" in anything; you are selling a product for money. Period. If you happen to be a devout Christian who has a clothing store, you might be selling a dress to a lesbian who is going to wear it at her wedding. You aren't participating in the lesbian wedding - you simply sold one of your dresses to someone. It's really none of your business what they are going to use your product for once they've paid for it. It becomes their product to do with as they please.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

If you are a business that sells stuff, you are not "participating" in anything; you are selling a product for money. Period. If you happen to be a devout Christian who has a clothing store, you might be selling a dress to a lesbian who is going to wear it at her wedding. You aren't participating in the lesbian wedding - you simply sold one of your dresses to someone. It's really none of your business what they are going to use your product for once they've paid for it. It becomes their product to do with as they please.

I kinda get the feeling being referred to though. When I would sell alcohol to people already very drunk in my store, that were getting in a car, it would bother my conscience. Legally I am not participating in their act, but it kept me up at night.
Same thing when kids would buy huge bags of candy, or the woman who was diabetic would buy donuts!! (her daughter actually came in and asked me to refuse to sell to her mom). The many alcoholics who would come in daily for their liquor... It was largely the reason I chose to sell my business. I could not feel integral with that. I knew quite well they would get the same things elsewhere and do the same things- it was just...I needed to feel that I was active and contributing to things I support and value, not those I don't.

Funny I am coming back to this thread- just this morning I was doing yoga in the forest and an ex-client came upon me with her dog. She used to be a "he" back then! Married, children, no hint of an internal struggle. She seems happy now.
But even if she had done it back then, I would have felt fine working with her, and felt uncomfortable selling the booze and sugar to people.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: DeadFoot

No one refused any service at all.

Delusional.

We are done here.

Enjoy talking about cakes on every gay issue for another 10 years.

I hope you find someone who doesn't see through the adolescent nonsense to entertain you for longer than I will.

We talk about freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion and yes...even freedom to be who you believe you are. But what real freedom do we have if we can be forced to do something we don't want to do?

I understand and agree that we need to be "forced" to NOT do things. Illegal things like crime, killing, etc. I also understand that we need to pay taxes, but that is in exchange for a service we received. As an individual and as a business owner, I believe that everyone should have the right to refuse to do anything that we don't agree with.

You don't have real freedom if you can be forced to do something you don't want to do. Yes...in this context it is about making/selling a cake. But if you want to support that as something you can be forced to do, you open the idea to other problems. Can you force a Jewish baker to provide a custom made cake for a skin-head rally? Can you force any baker to make and sell a cake cover with little children decorations to a pedophile? Can you force a baker to make a BLM cake showing black people shooting cops?

You see...this can't be based upon opinion, because opinions change and everyone's is different. I know many of you here are the fringe gay/trans rights crowd...no problem. But if you make a law that applies to everyone...you open those doors. Unless you want to lose freedom...you shouldn't force anyone to do something against their will. If nothing else, it isn't very nice and turns that person into an enemy. Which also isn't nice.

So if I walk into a gay bakery wearing a t-shirt that says "Trans = Mentally Ill" (just had to pull that out of my ass), I assume they should be forced to make me a cake with that same saying...if I wish...right? Equality? Fairness? And to be honest, since I have a real demented sense of humor...maybe I should try doing that. It would be fun as all hell and maybe I could call the news stations to film the event. Tit for tat?

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
As an individual and as a business owner, I believe that everyone should have the right to refuse to do anything that we don't agree with.

So basically you believe that a restaurant has the right to refuse to let blacks or Jews in just because the owner doesn't agree to serve them.


Noted.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
So if I walk into a gay bakery wearing a t-shirt that says "Trans = Mentally Ill" (just had to pull that out of my ass), I assume they should be forced to make me a cake with that same saying...if I wish...right?

How is that even close to someone asking a baker for a wedding cake? Your example is terrible and manipulative

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFart

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

just fyi, when you are being "included" in an event, etc...that is the opposite of discrimination.

Being forced to include ones self in an event, when said event is against one's religious beliefs, is discrimination.

No it's absolutely not what discrimination means.

Sorry you can't accept when you are wrong. Sometimes it's best to humbly stay quiet and move on instead of ridicule oneself

Oh, it's only discrimination for certain groups. Gotcha.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

If you are a business that sells stuff, you are not "participating" in anything; you are selling a product for money. Period. If you happen to be a devout Christian who has a clothing store, you might be selling a dress to a lesbian who is going to wear it at her wedding. You aren't participating in the lesbian wedding - you simply sold one of your dresses to someone. It's really none of your business what they are going to use your product for once they've paid for it. It becomes their product to do with as they please.

A wedding cake isn't just another product, and these tend to be delivered by the bakery that makes them. That is participation. Then there are photographers, likewise told they have to participate.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
A wedding cake isn't just another product

It truly is

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Oh, so it's just the delivery part that's the problem? Hire someone else to deliver it. Problem solved.

It would be so easy to work around these issues. You see, people who refuse to sell wedding cakes to gay couples aren't interested in problem solving. They are only interested in making sure the gay couples (and everyone else) know exactly why they won't make their cakes.

I understand what you mean. For example, every TV show I watch has some of gay/Transgender thing thrown in for attention and it's always how the gay and Transgenders are being bullied in some way. I would like to see how the gay and Trans are bullying straight people for once. Now there's a story hasn't happened as of yet

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Oh, so it's just the delivery part that's the problem? Hire someone else to deliver it. Problem solved.

It would be so easy to work around these issues. You see, people who refuse to sell wedding cakes to gay couples aren't interested in problem solving. They are only interested in making sure the gay couples (and everyone else) know exactly why they won't make their cakes.

They also are terrible businessmen.


The Netherlands has always been a Christian country but also is considered one of the most tolerant country worldwide.

Why? Because they have always been excellent businessmen and they know very well how to keep business and personal opinion as separate things. Does that make them bad Christians? I don't think so since Christians are supposed to be tolerant and forgiving. That actually makes them excellent Christians.


Unlike the fundamentalists who have always been a force causing division, judgement and bigotry.

originally posted by: Etoile
I would like to see how the gay and Trans are bullying straight people for once.

You have some weird fetishes.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Oh, so it's just the delivery part that's the problem? Hire someone else to deliver it. Problem solved.

It would be so easy to work around these issues. You see, people who refuse to sell wedding cakes to gay couples aren't interested in problem solving. They are only interested in making sure the gay couples (and everyone else) know exactly why they won't make their cakes.

It is still a sort of acceptance of the event, and that is against the beliefs of many people. Simpler, find a bakery that doesn't care. Why force someone to go along with something like that?

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

I understand this is not really your point but it's the bit which confuses me.

Why would selling a cake, even attending a wedding, be a sinful thing? It's not doing the act which is supposedly sinful. I don't understand what is so bad about the thought of "In my religion that's a bad thing so I won't do it, these people think differently to me so knowing that they're informed about my religions views I'll let them live their life as they wish"?

Why is this fervent illiberalism of so many modern religious people still around? With different views and cultures so readily available to witness (either by travel, immigration or media) and the conspicuous 'pick and choose' type of religious life being led by so many nowadays I find it strange that people think they need to instruct others on how life is 'supposed' to be.

I think in this more informed time it is an intellectual abdication to arrogantly presume to know that your one is obviously the best and correct one! Especially when we can simply type "Bible Historicity" (or any other holy book) into google and find out how some of these texts came together! "Word of God"? Well he does move in some seriously mysterious ways if our common King James English translation right now is exactly how it is supposed to be! Scripture written over hundreds of years and passed on by both aural and written word, translated innumerable amounts, politically collated by Constantine, more translations and passed down the ages till we eventually get to what we know it as now. That's ignoring all the other potential alterations, mistakes and political influences!

I'm in no way mocking or belittling peoples beliefs, I think they largely come down to what the individual simply feels is reality (which is absolutely the right thing IMO) rather than subscribing to every word of a collection of very old texts.

I just wish people were more honest and open about the history of these books and scripture- regardless of the origin, they have obviously been influenced by humans from mere translation to political and cultural manipulation.