Society is forced to be accepting of gays & transgenders.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: Bluesma

Here's my thought again, going back to, I believe, my first post. Why would anyone be telling a person that they either feel the same about the gay issue as is currently socially acceptable or they are a bad person in the first place?

To put pressure on them to take part in a protest event.
Come on, it is a tactic as old as humanity- "if you aren't with us, you're against us." Knowing the person is already "with us" is the only way this threat of rejection effective.

The concept that "lack of action against an evil makes you guilty of the evil" is known by us all. It is used by groups and religions everywhere to manipulate it's members to do certain acts.

I do not believe for a moment that anyone here has not, at least once in life, observed or experienced this type of manipulation.

originally posted by: jasminnne
...I have seen it for myself and did not say anything personal or mean to anyone.

Well, then you've deluded yourself and that must be some kind of disorder? 37 of your 43 posts were in a thread discussing transgender issues. Your attitude, language and phrases have been inflammatory, defamatory and antagonistic. You know your anti-trans talking points a little too well so I doubt this is your first rodeo as what can clearly be called a hater.

I am very reluctant to use labels such as that and rarely do but if you think you've all innocent and pure and are somehow a victim because you've been called on your willful ignorance and trash talk about transgender people, maybe you need to think again and stop whining for sympathy that you've been treated poorly. What goes around comes around.

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFart

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
That's all well and good, till it gets to the point of telling me I have to agree.

No one tells you you have to agree. Only to not be an ass about it. Very different

If someone's job or business is threatened, because they don't agree, I'd call the person threatening the "ass". Maybe that's just me. No one that knows me has ever called me judgmental, however, and that includes a lot of people, with a lot of different ideas, practices, and beliefs. I can respect that we don't all agree. It would be nice if the group shouting "tolerance" all the time could be so themselves.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

They can even believe they don't have a choice.

Just the same way you have the right to believe in whatever "God" you choose. Both are existential belief's in nature, unable to be proven or disproven.

Exactly. We can respect that each person can have their own beliefs.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

That's all well and good, till it gets to the point of telling me I have to agree. No, I don't! I don't have to agree, I don't have to approve, and I don't have to participate, in any way, with some activity or other, in a business.

Again I agree with you 100% so please do not hold me to the same rules and/or belief in religious doctrine that you hold, I do not acknowledge them. Shoving one anthers views and beliefs in others faces only serves to agitate one another to falling into the kind of calculated and manipulated divsivenss that TPTB use to keep us blind to the true evil's of the world.

I could share a foxhole with you if you could do the same for me in the face of a common enemy.

I might share my beliefs, but I won't force them on anyone. One good friend of mine is not close to Christian, more leaning toward Wiccan and other similar things, and we had some great discussions on what we believe. She knows where I stand, and that I'd like to see her accept that, but I won't push. The biggest clashes tend to be in demonstrations, and there, people just need to respect that we all have a right to peacefully assemble. I have seen video of people attacked for carrying signs with Christian messages. That sort of thing isn't tolerance.

I could as well. We don't have to agree on everything to get along and work together. You don't seem to be the antagonistic sort.

originally posted by: yes4141
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

This isn't an attack on you, just my curiosity.

Could I ask why you "Don't agree" with homosexuality? It's not like you have to join in! I just can't quite grasp the problem, unless it's religious and even then that's "just following orders"- you may not have a real problem with it.

I just like to hear the 'why's behind this sort of thing.

I hold to a Christian, Biblical viewpoint, that homosexual behavior is a sin, same as adultery, sex outside of marriage, and many other things. It's not a matter of "following orders", as much as not wanting to contribute to a sinful behavior. By that, I mean by participating in a homosexual wedding, or facilitating the behavior, such as hosting a homosexual couple in a B&B, or something to that effect. I don't have any issue with working with someone who is, and have done so. One of those guys was a good friend at the time, and the other was easy to work with. Colorful fellow, and smart. Have had neighbors who were, female couple, in that case, and the only issues there were when they were dealing drugs. Their behavior wasn't affecting anyone, so it wasn't an issue. In fact, we went to parties at their place, with a very diverse crowd, and no problems were allowed. So, it's no the people themselves. Does that make sense?

It's just when it comes to these cases of people being forced to participate in a homosexual wedding that I take issue, and in cases of homosexuality being taught in schools. I don't, to be honest, think ANY sex ed is needed in schools before high school, certainly not pre-puberty. Kids need to know what's private, and that's it. Later, basic biology, some education on diseases, and perhaps some guidance on puberty, are all that is needed. When I was in school, that's what we had, and teen pregnancies were rare. Teen promiscuity wasn't the norm, either. Yes, some did sleep around, but it wasn't the norm. These days, it seems like those that don't are the rare ones. Kids don't need to be raised that way.

No worries at all about questions! I like to ask them myself.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Which book of the bible is against gay folk?.

originally posted by: TheKnightofDoom
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Which book of the bible is against gay folk?.

Homosexuality is called a sin in many places. A simple online search can give you a good idea. OT and NT prohibitions against the behavior. Not the people, the sin.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

So you cherry pick?.
Jesus said nothing about gay folk so why as a christian do you say it is a sin when jesus never mentioned it?.
Do you follow the new or oldTestament?.
The old does say stuff against gays but in the same book it says wearing two types of cloth is a sin.
So again why cherry pick and ignore the fact jesus said nothing about gays.

What's Wong with society accepting gays and transgendered. I see no issues with conservatives accepting milo. I think he might be gay, but has right wing cover even embraced by certain sections of conservative media. So is it more to do with opinions, than sexuality

a reply to: Bluesma

Feeling pressure? This again goes back to knowing yourself and your own mind.

I think there's more below the surface here than someone "feeling pressure." The veil is very thin.

a reply to: celinem

Opinions?

You are free to hate whoever you want to hate

You are not free to treat anyone like lesser people

Nobody is forcing you to think anything - or accept anything, so that's dishonest from the get go

Stonewall happened for a reason. It was a long time ago. It's taken up until now for people that you say don't bother you to bother you

What you leave out is why we're all talking about it so much now

The reason is: because we can

Am i the only one that feels pressured into supporting these people?

These people? I'll bite my tongue now...

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: Bluesma

Feeling pressure? This again goes back to knowing yourself and your own mind.

I think there's more below the surface here than someone "feeling pressure." The veil is very thin.

For crying outloud.... Here we go again....there's got to be something "hating gays" in there... I'm sure no one can feel irritated with being called a nazi if they don't have time to go parade in the streets screaming like a nutcase. (or happen to be on the wrong side of the world). There's got to be more to it...

My point is, it makes the activist movement you are trying to promote look bad. It can work on a few (who are very very concerned with fitting in), some will just make an effort to distance themselves from your activist events, and some will get fed up with the crap and turn against you.

These disingenuous statements are tiresome. You all know the tactic, you know it creates polarization and forces conflict. Stop pretending you have no idea what this is about.

It has nothing to do with knowing your own mind. I know I have nothing against LGBT people, HE knows I have nothing against LGBT people... that is why he used that tactic with us!!! It can only be useful against someone who is already on the same side as you!
I don't feel any doubt about my feelings about LGBT people... but I am gaining a prejudice against exaggerating activists who are manipulative.
They are so caught up in making a show of their heroic efforts (remember, this guy was not gay himself) they are willing to go to extremes.

a reply to: Bluesma

I'm sure no one can feel irritated with being called a nazi if they don't have time to go parade in the streets screaming like a nutcase. (or happen to be on the wrong side of the world). There's got to be more to it...

Did someone actually call you a Nazi?

Just curious

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

I'm sure no one can feel irritated with being called a nazi if they don't have time to go parade in the streets screaming like a nutcase. (or happen to be on the wrong side of the world). There's got to be more to it...

Did someone actually call you a Nazi?

Just curious

I explained what happened.
A cousin went on our family Facebook group and started a long rant about how being passive is the same thing as being guilty of oppression and all kinds of horrible acts. It was a long guilt trip about how being passive make us the same as the Nazi's. Finally, at the end, he revealed that he wanted to get people to come be part of a protest-thing for gay rights.

I found it distasteful and irritating. That doesn't mean I hate LGBT people - I explained at length! My parents have swung both ways, I have always had some gay and lesbian friends, and feel totally comfortable with them! I just don't like that kind of guilt tripping, and I know some people who dislike it so much they can develop some hostile feelings towards the whatever group is using those methods.
That kind of tactic has made some people HATE Christians and Christianity, which is unfair for the Christians that don't do that.

a reply to: Bluesma

I explained what happened.

Yes - I read that. This is why I asked. If he actually called you - Bluesma - a Nazi? That would be wrong

If he's only making comparisons for effect - he's not wrong

I think people like to believe that we're all just one big rainbow colored family here on planet Earth these days. We like to believe that all of our past differences are safely in the past. But, we know this isn't true

In order to not have to deal with any of this any longer, what we do now is say how annoyed we are about it all, that there's just too much whining for no good reason. That those awful things that happened in the past will never be repeated

I wonder why your cousin feels this need to try and win your support? Is he just needy? Are all LGBTQ rights activists beyond being useful or necessary? Can we just lay all this to rest - enough with the pleading?

According to the latest FBI data, which tracked 2014 incidents, 18.6 percent of all hate crimes were motivated by sexual orientation. Gender identity accounted for 1.8 percent of attacks. FBI data from the year prior showed 20.3 percent of hate crimes were motivated by sexual orientation and 0.5 percent were motivated by gender identity.

That data seem to be in line with the latest figures from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Program (NCAVP), which tracks violence against the LGBT community. While overall violence against the gay community had dropped 32 percent, the data, which dated back to 2014, found violence against transgender people rose 13 percent. The increased violence against the transgender community comes amid a growing controversy over bathroom laws, especially one in North Carolina, that are deemed by critics to be anti-transgender.

_____________________________________________________

Over the top?

In 1934, a special Gestapo (Secret State Police) division on homosexuals was set up. One of its first acts was to order the police "pink lists" from all over Germany. The police had been compiling these lists of suspected homosexual men since 1900. On September 1, 1935, a harsher, amended version of Paragraph 175 of the Criminal Code, originally framed in 1871, went into effect, punishing a broad range of "lewd and lascivious" behavior between men. In 1936, Nazi leader Heinrich Himmler created a Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion: Special Office (II S), a subdepartment of Executive Department II of the Gestapo. The linking of homosexuality and abortion reflected the Nazi regimes population policies to promote a higher birthrate of its "Aryan" population. On this subject Himmler spoke in Bad Tölz on February 18, 1937, before a group of high-ranking SS officers on the dangers both homosexuality and abortion posed to the German birthrate.

Under the revised Paragraph 175 and the creation of Special Office IIS, the number of prosecutions increased sharply, peaking in the years 1937-1939. Half of all convictions for homosexual activity under the Nazi regime occurred during these years. The police stepped up raids on homosexual meeting places, seized address books of arrested men to find additional suspects, and created networks of informers to compile lists of names and make arrests.

An estimated 1.2 million men were homosexuals in Germany in 1928. Between 1933-45, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, and of these, some 50,000 officially defined homosexuals were sentenced. Most of these men spent time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of the total sentenced were incarcerated in concentration camps.

Sounds like something out of a badly written and ill conceived screenplay - doesn't it?

But, those days are over - right? Nobody thinks like this any more - because nobody hates the LGBTQ community currently. That's why it's important to shut them up - what with their incessant whining...and their risque parades. Enough already!

I'm guessing you might see this reply as a kind of attack, because you're in that place right now

I'm simply trying to say that things are not always the way we want them to be. Some people are still struggling to be accepted for who they are - religious folk, different ethnicities and cultures, the LGBTQ community - and for crying out loud - women too. Let's list them all - why not?

Have you not noticed how many times, and in how many different ways people are working to shut these people up lately?

Notice all the threads here at ATS alone. These people can be anyone... The aim is to de-fang by any means available. Humiliation and trivializing work just fine - obviously

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
If he's only making comparisons for effect - he's not wrong

I disagree. I think people have different parts to play in this society- some can be helping others move towards change, in much more discrete ways. Like I feel better having heart to heart discussions with those close to me on the subject, in which they don't feel aggressively charged, and their mind remains calm and receptive to what I am saying.

My own husband was against gay people adopting children, for example, and I eventually got him to change his mind.
It took time, it took talking, letting it rest, bringing it up again another time, working through his thoughts, having him meet my stepdads lifelong gay friend I grew up around, who raised his daughter with his companion (and she turned out more balanced than most kids my age).

But I got him to change his mind. He actually got into a discussion with his brother one day on the subject, and I got to hear him playing the role I had previously.

Now, I am aware that the world needs a bit of everything, and what works with one might not work with another. Some people need a slap in the face, some people just need a gentle nudge. So let those that wish to parade and yell do so. Let those who are more quietly changing the stubborn cases one on one do so.

For many of these people, what I find is that it is simply a matter of habit and custom. It is that they are not used to certain things and their mind balks.

Like I said, I watched the people of France debate gay marriage, and many people were saying they thought it was totally unacceptable, and we let them speak. We continued on with rational discussion. It was made legal, and then everyone just stopped talking about it. Just let it happen slowly. Let them get used to seeing same sex couples be more open in public, start seeing them having ceremonies....don't make a media circus about some remaining difficulties, like a baker refusing to make a cake.... they go the baker down the street, and they make sure to tell their friends discretely what happened.

Let the baker be faced with the communities judgement as they are getting used to this. Maybe they need time to turn around too. But put them on the evening news, back them into a corner where they have to justify and defend their act, they build up reasoning where there wasn't, they are now obligated to stick to their choice, in order to seem stable and with character. They can't change their minds now!

Just let it happen, that is my view, because it is what I am watching happening. It IS possible.

I wonder why your cousin feels this need to try and win your support?

Because he's retired, he's bored, and he wants to be seen as a social justice warrior that has worth to the society. He is not gay, by the way, so it is also a way fo screaming out "Hey! I am not prejudiced!"

KInda like my mom bragging in the '70's that she slept with a black man. Trying to prove to self through others.

I'm guessing you might see this reply as a kind of attack, because you're in that place right now

No. I think I see it more as a stubborn refusal to actually consider what I am saying because it is doesn't fit in the "white" side, nor the "black" side (not speaking of skin color, just of polarity in general). I find whenever you have a position which is not of the two biggest parties, in the US, people have a hard time considering it. And you have to go over it again and again, while both sides remain convinced you are of "the other side".

The aim is to de-fang by any means available. Humiliation and trivializing work just fine - obviously

Yeah, I noticed. People will put up all kinds of responses to get you to shut up. I'm simply refusing. You have the right to continue trying though, I do not say otherwise.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis


Did someone actually call you a Nazi?

Just curious

Well, that was a lie, wasn't it?

You just wrote that you had read what happened, you knew the answer, so this was just a "pointed question"
making a point, NOT curiosity.

I just hate dishonesty.

a reply to: Bluesma

Well, that was a lie, wasn't it?

You just wrote that you had read what happened, you knew the answer, so this was just a "pointed question"
making a point, NOT curiosity.

I just hate dishonesty.

How was that dishonest?

I simply didn't understand if he implied you were a Nazi - or actually called you a Nazi personally. From the post I read:

I was drawn to this thread today because we have a cousin on our family feed that is attempting to stir people up using this exact same type of tactic- making an open request of everyone to respond to him, and a long explanation of how if you aren't actively fighting, then you are guilty of terrible injustices, through your passive conduct. He's actually comparing us to Nazi's and accomplices of murderers....

My reply to you:

Yes - I read that. This is why I asked. If he actually called you - Bluesma - a Nazi? That would be wrong

If he's only making comparisons for effect - he's not wrong

____________________________________

You know - I'm going to do something I don't ordinarily do here at ATS

I was preparing to write a long, thoughtful reply to your other post. You took the time and put some thought into it - and I appreciated that

I'm usually always up for a real discussion - it happens so seldom...

Never mind then

I'm done here I think

originally posted by: TheKnightofDoom
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

So you cherry pick?.
Jesus said nothing about gay folk so why as a christian do you say it is a sin when jesus never mentioned it?.
Do you follow the new or oldTestament?.
The old does say stuff against gays but in the same book it says wearing two types of cloth is a sin.
So again why cherry pick and ignore the fact jesus said nothing about gays.

Not at all. The entire Bible is the Word of God, and since Jesus is God, yes, He did. The New testament discusses such activity as sinful as well.

a reply to: Freija


I didn't say anything rude to you or "trash talk" being trans. I just told the truth and that offended you. You're the one trying to be a victim that is what your whole life is based around. Being a victim. A poor little innocent trans person that can do no wrong

As soon as someone disagrees with you people the insults come flying in

-stupid
-ignorant
-evil
-hateful
-big meanie

etc.....

your physical appearance might also be attacked when they really run out of things to say.