Read: Worst Case War Scenario, WWIII: East Asia....

WWIII eh? I'd say WWIII will involve nuclear missiles flying everywhere and blowing the whole world up and after that there will be nothing left, the end.

I don't think so I don't think the countries that have multiple Nuclear missiles will use them like Russia, EU, U.S. and China. I think the crazy ones like Iran and N. Korea may fire their few nukes but it would not be enough to end the world.
People know that firing the nukes would destroy them and the adversary so they get hesitant to use them. Nukes are a deterrent not an offensive weapon.

actually, with the rise of these rouge states possibly having nukes, im leaning away from the ICBMs everywhere--its more likely of massive conventional fighting but now theres intheatre tactical nukes..not ICBMs fired at entire cities across the world..

Hey could anyone help me out here..
Me and these chicoms( no offence intended ) were arguing whether a 200 kT atmospheric detonation over a large city like beijing would cripple it to a magnitude that it would not be able to function as a 'city' for quite some time..
After some researchI was convinced that it most definitely would..

not 200kt india only has 20-40 kilton. its in the range of a tactical missile

i reckon in a war between india china would have at least 500,000 men deployed in tibet and surrounding areas. india couldn't deploy more than 400,000 if it didn't call up their reservists. a war between china and india would need numbers.

how big is the indian airforce 700 + planes i dunno but are half still mig 21s/mig 23
india only has like 30 su-30mki and the rest still coming.

lets see

airwar - china
seawar- draw
ground war - china

in the airwar

china has a indegenious aircraft program since the 1960s and can produce their own aircraft and spare parts. while the indian airforce imports most of their aircraft(dont deny it) and has to import spare parts.
india couldn't get half their airforce to the chinese border while china could at least get 1000 aircraft. they might be old but when combined with ground radar or AWACS. china also has j-11/su-27 near indian border. china has a lot SAM missiles that are still effective with attacking aircraft without jamming aircraft.

what do you think about that?

good read indian airforce.
defencejournal.com...

ground war

china has a better arms industries no matter how you look at it. And the motion the indian army is trained better .. you haven't given a sread of edvidence. the chinese army has vastly improved since the 1979 sino-vietnese war. the main reason the PLA didn't give a better show is because the chinese army was just recovering from the affects of the cultural revolution. china has 9 Rapid reaction divisons with a combined number of 258,000 troops.


As for the mythical russian ally.

how is russia going to hep india. give me edvidence
china has better trade with russia 3rd largest trading partner. also we buy more military products than you do.
You said something before that russia was going to help india in 1971 war
wheres edvidence

russia is different from soviet union. russia only needed india in cold war because it needed a friendly country in indian ocean. russia doesn't need india (only to buy weapons)

you said before that india was the only country that supported russia on chechnya. china also supported russia

Im not going to quote evidence.. you upstart.. you don't even read the links igive yu and then cry "no evidence"..

REad the BL00DY tibet threads!!
ALL the queries you've posted above HAVE been answered there..
If you lack the capacity to locate those answers then I will spoon-feed you with them..
Even diretc you to every relevant posts in those threads to satisfy your doubts..
But if I do that this time then I'm never responding to any of your posts EVER again..
Hell you might have the honour being the FIRST one on my ignore list..
And eve proteinx wasn't bestowed with such an "honor"..
And now please don't ask me for "evidence" on who/what proteinx is/was..

quote some of your links.

hey Daedalus3 i read the whole of the tibet links dont even try say i didn't because thats why i started coming to this forum to argue with people about the tibet thing. that whole thread was rubbish. it didn't even take into account that india was still in a war with kashmir or you not having research chinese airbases and saying that chinas airbases are on the east coast

whos proteix????

[edit on 11-5-2005 by chinawhite]

Fascinating thread

A question though-

Where are these proteinx posts you folks refer to?

Indian navy, aircraft carriers are certianly better than the chinese ones.

Indian AF would surely be able to take on the chinese.

The large chinese army can be held off by india's well trained one.

If pakistan knows its role and keeps quiet, if the war is non nuclear , India will win.

But why should india liberate tibet anyway. it should capture manasarovar, kailash, etc and forget about the rest of tibet and drive out tibetian refugees and that lama guy.Functioality outweighs emotion anyday...

aryaputhra

India and Pakistan are a couple of those few nations who didn't lock themsleves into NATO supplies. India flies Russian jets, drives British tanks far superior to anything Chinese and looked over Uziel Galil's shoulder for rifle inspiration.

� Energy -- China's growth depends on imports of oil, gas and coal, making it vulnerable to sharp increases in world energy prices.

But the most immediate danger for RAND and other experts is the fragility of China's state-dominated financial system.

Just ignore this Hawksss guy, he's exactly what I said he is, a CCP drone that no form of logical argument that will penetrate into his thick chinaman skull, apart from name calling.

Not really. They have many a times proven to be cronies to the most corrupt politicians and investors worldwide. I will search and provide you some URLs on this. In the same token, can you believe the RAND report?

HowlrunnerIV

Tanks clearly ain't your thing. The Vijayanta is not, repeat NOT a Centurion. Even if it were, the Centurion, at its time, was the best Main Battle Tank on earth. Its time equates to T54/55 and T64. Neither of which come close. Since 1945 Britain has led the world in Tank design, why do you think M1/M1A1 wears Chobham armour?
Those obviously clueless tank operators the Israelis still field (seriously upgraded) Centurions. How did Egyptian T-series tanks do against Israeli M48 Pattons (which lets face it weren't that good anyway) and AMX13s (which were even smaller)?
The South African Oliphant is likewise a seriously upgraded Centurion.

are you even trying to compare a t-55 with a centurion. the reason why the eqyptian lost to israelis is because they had bad leadrship and their training was very primitive.

the tibet thread more people sided with china. after the 5th page everything just went down hill.

read stealthspys comments?
they overate everything india has.
and aryaputhra keeps mentioning chinas polictical system?? you call my post irelvevent how about that

YES I am saying that India can stand up to China....You think it can't but I think it can..we can't make anymore progress on that issue.

And your doubts about the 'friendship treaty' between India : just google for it and you'll get your answers..Incidently the USSR DID support us in the 1962 war.

Hence the point in the other forum about the Chinese using nukes against conventional russian forces. Or have you not read that also??!!

Check this link: www.cdi.org...

Also please read the section on an Indo-russia-china axis.Its a new world out there and strategic partners are a necessity.
Thats why I proposed regional unity in my previous posts on this very same thread but i suppose you haven't read those either!

See my motto: "New axis of evil : India-China-Russia" because im sure you haven't seen that too..

I rest my case

this quote is from you

india cant take on china. like russian said you have high tech weapons but only a little of them. and also what russian said the chinese poilots flying the newest planes have a lot more training than the rest of the airforce.

russia in no way backed india in 1962 war. they just didn't side with china.
india signed the peace and friendship treaty with india in 1971

Listen im tired of "wforum" and "sinodefence" as chicom home grown govt backed sites...Hawksss has never posted a link to anything except these two sites in the history of all his posts....I've been to both the sites and they just as bad as say "bharat rakshak" or any other Indian site.I've only posted links to sites which have neutral authors making assesments..not once have I posted a link to any Indian site!!...

This arguement is old...I said that the PLAAF and PLA do not have the resources to divert enough troops/planes and to the tibetian border if a conflict involving CHINESE AGGRESSION and INDIAN RETALIATION ensues...Why because the US and Russia will not sit by and watch...Hell even Japan will flex thier muscles on the chinese coastline...China will fighting the war on more tahn on front...All India has to worry about is Pakistan which won't be much of a problem as it is neck deep in its own problems...
Btw hawkksss do you even know what National Security Index is??!!
In that list ROK is placed above the UK and France..Does that mean ROK is more powerful than these countries??!!
You have to answer me on this NSI bit..I want know your explanation for it!!And if you don't answer, I take it as the proverbial tail between the legs and run action on your part!!
You've gotten away too many times postng rubbish and then shutting up when people correct you!!

Also it has been stated by NEUTRAL POSTERS that IAF pilot are much better than PLAAF pilots and they've also said that NUMBERS DONT MATTER!!
Unlike you proteinx...Hawkksss and COWlan have seen those posts and have kept quiet after that...its just because you've opened the topic up again that they're piggy backing on your insults....

And why does the word $hit form a part of each and every post of yours??!!

obsessed with it?
Naw don't tell me I don't even want to know!!

umm one from you again

your tried of wforum and sinodefence well we are tried of bharat-rakshak.. its a fact you haven't posted any working links.

moving people planes by rail is cheap china has a extensive road/rail network. the PLAAF just doesn't have the resources to move things by air not by rail/roads. and even thinking about japanese aggression is laughble. in their consitution they are not allowed to use offensive power do some research coming up with things not throught out well...

Nope wrong about indian pilot training is better not even neutral people agree with you.. the said numbers do matter read the post properly.

read all of what RUSSIAN posted

10,000 tanks china has!!
And 330,000 pilots??
700 helis??

And India has 45 submarines??

I think both sites have GREATLY exxagerated nos...maybe you should get info about both from an american or european or russian site...

yet again posted by you.

yes china has 10,000 tanks used to be 13,000
and also we had a even larger airforce..
and we have more than 700 helis now

Today, the PLA Air Force consists of 330,000 personnel, operating some 3,500 aircraft, over 1,000 surface-to-air missile systems, and several thousand anti-aircraft artillery. As a result of China’s ongoing force reduction and military modernisation, the size of the PLA Air Force has been decreasing since the mid-1980s, with most of its obsolete aircraft based on the 1950s-era Soviet designs being retired from service.

The ground forces along total some 2 million troops and support personnel, or 80% of the PLA’s total manpower. This force also deploys 8,000 tanks, 4,000 armoured vehicles, and 25,000 artillery guns and multiple rocket launchers (MRLs)

sinodefence.com is not at bias to china if you bother to go there you'll find out for yourself

read this link from FAS

www.fas.org...

these are the airbases near indian border.

Chengdu Military Region

Chengdu Airbase
Chongqing Airport
Kunming Airbase
Lhasa Airbase
Mengzi
Xining Airbase

Lanzhou Military Region

Urumqi Airbase
Wugong Airbase
Wulumuqi Airbase
Xian Airbase
Yinchuan Airbase

these are two military regions near india Lanzhou and Chengdu
info from global security

external image

[edit on 11-5-2005 by chinawhite]

Heres the truth: assuming Alone 1 on 1 combat
China and USA against each other
(hypothetically, no allies of either involved)

its absolutly possible for the USA to launch a sustained invasion of China. But it prob. cant maintain forces there (like dday)...strong enough to cripple China.. China is too big and there are too many people...unless we used nuclear weapons to level the ground first-but then theyd use nukes also..

BUTTTTTTT

ignoring the fact that China cant reach the US with its troops

it IS possible for the chinese to land troops in the USA, but like the scenario above, they can not hold an offensive war there at all. theres too much land and there are too many people...unless they used nuclear weapons, and then we use ours and you get the point....

thats the truth, so both sides would need to bring allies onto its side to fight a most major war...the biggest the world has ever seen..and from the looks of it..id suspect a chinese invasion followed by a nuclear retailiation..followed by a US nuclear retal... on china...

ARE YOU LOST ??? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT



ITS CHINA VS INDIA

Daedalus3 read this

It is generally understood that about 70 percent of India's military equipment is of Soviet origin. Some army officials continue to favor Russian-made equipment, such as the T-72 tank, over Indian adaptations of the same items, such as the T-72 MI tank developed by the DRDO.

indianchild.com...

your above post I did not understand the motive of..

As for your maps...
Here's a neutral source..AGAIN this was posted on the tibet threads!!!





You said Yinchuan was near India..Its over 1500km from the Indo-china border!!
c'mon man..You don't know bases in your own country??
And check the number of Indian airbases on the border..


The FAS site you quoted..
thanks for the link..
Here's that site's perspective on India..

read the army and AF stas carefully..

Here are the glaring differences I find..


1.The IAF has over 180+ flt. hours confirmed by FAS..PLAAF has max 180 and that too fro the Su-30.. so who's more expereinced?!

2.The area of warfare is mountainous..note the amount of mountainous groups each country has..I think a division holds many brigades, keep that in mind..

3. Check the number of Indian peacekeeping forces abroad and compare them with those of china.. again from the FAS site...
There's the diff in experience for you again..

4. Extra info.. The IAF has had/ is having many war games/exercises with leading AFs of the world..

USA,RSAF,South Africa,UK,Russia, France

PLAAF???.. you tell me... Experience just doesn't come by sitting cooped up and writing rave reviews on planes..


5. Here's a link showing India fighting a war in terrain which is almost EXACTLY like that in tibet..
Now thats what you call recent experience..

vayu-sena.tripod.com...
Also I'd like to know the amount/type of attack helis china's got..
The IAF has Mi-17(china has em too) and the venerable Mi24/25/35 attack helis.. right out of rambo 3
you got chinese rambos to take care of em??....



[edit on 12-5-2005 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3

The FAS site you quoted..
thanks for the link..
Here's that site's perspective on India..

read the army and AF stas carefully..
Here are the glaring differences I find..

1.The IAF has over 180+ flt. hours confirmed by FAS..PLAAF has max 180 and that too fro the Su-30.. so who's more expereinced?!

2.The area of warfare is mountainous..note the amount of mountainous groups each country has..I think a division holds many brigades, keep that in mind..

3. Check the number of Indian peacekeeping forces abroad and compare them with those of china.. again from the FAS site...
There's the diff in experience for you again..

4. Extra info.. The IAF has had/ is having many war games/exercises with leading AFs of the world..

USA,RSAF,South Africa,UK,Russia, France

PLAAF???.. you tell me... Experience just doesn't come by sitting cooped up and writing rave reviews on planes..

5. Here's a link showing India fighting a war in terrain which is almost EXACTLY like that in tibet..
Now thats what you call recent experience..

vayu-sena.tripod.com...
Also I'd like to know the amount/type of attack helis china's got..
The IAF has Mi-17(china has em too) and the venerable Mi24/25/35 attack helis.. right out of rambo 3

you got chinese rambos to take care of em??..

..

[edit on 12-5-2005 by Daedalus3]

1. the indian airforce stats are not going to go past 190 hours if it did it would
write 190+. it didn't say max 180 hours just said 180 hours and with those 180hours chinas 228 su-27 and 90-100 j-11 and 176 su-30 planes would easily overcome the small indian airforce thats 494 su fighters with 180 hours training againest indias 30-40 su-30s.

other airforces

uk Flight Hours: Tornado 188, Harrier 218, Jaguar 215
taiwan Flight Hours: 180
pakistan Flight Hours: 210
japan Flying Hours: 150
spain Flying Hours: EF-18 160, F-5 220, F-1 160
israel Flying Hours: regulars: 180; reserves 80
France Flight Hours: 180

i know not all of them are at the indian border but in a time of war they can be moved there. taiwan cant declare independence without a vote of the general public so that Eliminate the taiwan question.

2. what areas are you talking about the chinese indian border is in two places. ones mountainous(very hard fight. difficult to advance) and the other is jungle.

3. THIS SHOWS YOUR COMPLETE MISUNDERING OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT. BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF SMALLER COUNTRIES IN SOUTH-EAST ASIA THAT FEAR THE RISE OF CHINA IT WOULD BE STUPID TO SEND A LOT OF MILITARY PERSONAL OVERSEAS. EVEN IF ITS HUMANITARIAN. IT LOOKS LIKE A ACT OF AGRESSION. you dont get military experience from peace keeping (except iraq)

4. china does have wargames with russia

archives.cnn.com...

war games with france.

www.newsmax.com...\

5. you might be fighting militants(big deal) or pakistan but your helicopters are going to be useless againest hand-held SAMs.

our chinese RAMBOs got these babys

The Qian Wei-1 (QW-1) is the second-generation shoulder-launched, IR-homing, 'fire-and-forget' air defence missile of the PLA. The missile was developed in the early 1990s as a successor to the HN-5. The missile entered service in the mid-1990s in a small number. The missile is said to be similar in designs and performance to the U.S. FIM-92A Stinger.

chinese attack helis look shiet


theres a new version i think still in development



[edit on 12-5-2005 by chinawhite]

indian training. wow big deal

www.hindustantimes.com...
www.deccanherald.com...

about hawk fighter
www.rediff.com...

the indian airforce doens't have alot of mirage and mig-29s

IAF contains 40 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft, 40 SU-30MKI aircraft[7], 93 Mig-29 interceptors and 88 Anglo-French Jaguar deep-strike attack aircraft

what so good about this

what reason is there for China to go to war in the first place, it will not be over peak oil (which is a lie) since if you would read anything about technology today in China you would understand that there are in the perfect position to deploy a hydrogen infrastructure, which they are currently doing. With hopes within the next 5 years to have 30% or more car ownership in some districts and being 90% or more hyrdrogen powered. Even today there are certain districts that during rush hours times only hybrid energy vechicles are allowed into. China has no reason to fight or get involved in the worlds problems with oil. There are looking into the future and have no mega monopolies holding back the uptake of new technologies (boo US energy companies). Sure their military might is not on par with the US but do you think the US is really that interested in losing so much money by getting involved in a conflict with China ???? How much money is at stack.... Billions, Trillions of US dollars. It would be a suicide move on the US to take or engage in military action with China, just as China would have lots to loose to be at odds with the US. Russia even with all the harsh talks, is still commited to becoming more financially independant. Putin as (IMO as a move to encourage clean energy inititives) decided not to increase the output of Russia's oil companies to meet the "world demand" this puts him at odds with Bush's desire to drop the price of oil in half. But in typical payola political BS the US is stuck at the mercy of the energy traders would enjoy soaking the huge profit currently in the market instead of expending some of the those dollars into producing "clean energy".

It is unfortunate that the powers that be are not willing to sacrafice some profit today for the long term benefit of the future. And the world is just trying to show us that if we will not be the first, then we will be the last. Which will further reduce our "pull" in the global economy as we are forced to play catch up. Think about it, if the US demand is still high, but the producers being making less and less barrels, since most of the driving consumption is switching to hydrogen then the price per barrel as a factor of cost per unit produced is going to sky rocket. And maybe eventually the muslims will get what they want, to be left alone, with no money and no power, free to worship their Koran 24 hours a day with no income coming in. And the West will be producing oil from Alaska and Texas and from every shore line that we can find oil, and gas will be $5.00 a gallon. While the rest of the world scoots around in their hyrdrogen hybrids, laughing at the slow, planet pollutiing Americans.

No need to have global conflict when you have the power of economics behind you.

Sure there will always be some crazy regime that threatens to wipe us all out, but if we can slowly get rid of them one by one, maybe eventually we can make the planet a safer place.

Of course the irony of it all is that we will probably accomplish this goal by 2029 only to be anihillated by a space rock.