Doesn't the Vatican prove the Pope and catholics are not true Christians?

a reply to: crazyewok

It certainly indicates a poor practice, if nothing else.

While in Europe, the hubby and I went to Paris, and saw inside Notre Dame. Unreal the amount of costly items in there, on display, doing no poor person anywhere any good.

those individuals and corporations dont claim to be gods direct representatives

Oh really? Then why do so many claim that they can't provide insurance that could cover birth control or abortion, or won't give out plan b, or do business with gay people because of their religious "values"? How can you claim religious examptions if you're not religious?

I do think that businesses shouldn't be able to claim they're religious since they're not people, but that' another argument.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Could it be also said, after reading that bit in context again, that Jesus was referring not to Peter as the rock, but to the faith of the disciples? After all, the church is said to be any two or three believers gathered in His name. It also makes sense if faith in Christ as Messiah is the rock upon which the church is built.

originally posted by: CB328

those individuals and corporations dont claim to be gods direct representatives

Oh really? Then why do so many claim that they can't provide insurance that could cover birth control or abortion, or won't give out plan b, or do business with gay people because of their religious "values"? How can you claim religious examptions if you're not religious?

I do think that businesses shouldn't be able to claim they're religious since they're not people, but that' another argument.

So many? Like one. Oh and a religious order of nuns and a bunch of institutions that were founded by religious denominations, but of course, you can't see at all why they might have an objection to operating against the tenets of their founding faith.

One? Really? What about all the pharmacists over the last few decades how have refused to give people birth control? What about the businesses and states that are refusing to do business with gay people? What about all the companies and states pushing religious freedom laws?

Hobby lobby is not the only company doing this by far

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Meanwhile, the Pope calls himself the Holy Father, when Jesus clearly stood against that. I'm pretty sure Christ doesn't approve of that nomenclature.

TheBorg

originally posted by: MrSpad
I think you just need to use a little common sense here. The Catholic Church the largest charity in the world. So why not sell every thing at the Vatican and give it to charity? The same reason Disney does not sell all its assets for profit. Because by keeping them they make much more money long term. Not their is a real market for Cathedrals and such anyway. It would be stupid to sell everything and end the Catholic church as a charitable organization.

There is a huge diffrence between honest money used for administrative purposes and money used to buy and upkeep massive palaces ect

originally posted by: MrSpad And frankly unless you have sold all your possessions for charity then you are in the same boat.

Im not claiming to be jesus direct official representative am i?

a reply to: ketsuko

Plus if you read the book of Acts Peter obviously is under the leadership of James. James was the first to succeed Christ and the first leader of the church.

Peter was just a great apostle among the Romans and Greeks. He was probably the most important apostle in terms of converting Rome's goyim, which is why he gets the name Peter. It has pagan connotations. It is a shame Paul gets all the credit while Peter is given 3 likely Pseudepigraphal letters in the back of the New Testament and a mention of him being hypocrite and liar made by Paul is allowed in without even getting Peter's side of the story.

a reply to: ketsuko

As I said there is nothing wrong with admiration costs. And there are individual Catholics that have done a lot of good and tried to live up to Jesus. Even the current pope seems to be trying.

The problem is the fundamental core of the Vatican of extravagance and political meddling, not to mention the rampant idolatry. With the exception of a few most the popes have been corrupt twisted leaders. For a organisation that’s meant to be Christ’s representatives there history does not make a good case!

As for individual wealth you are correct. Jesus never had a problem with people who earned honest money and were wealthy and him and his disciples used to stay with them as well as the poor. It clear that although hard (the camel and the eye of the needle) one can be wealthy and Christian.

BUT

When it comes to conducting official ministry and duties of god it’s a different matter.
One is not to make a profit off spiritual things (like the money changers in the temple) and Jesus and his disciples made a point of simple living while conducting there spiritual duties. Some of them did have professions outside there ministry. But while preaching they made a point to live simple lives giving the resources at hand to others. Look at the rich man that wanted to become a disciple? Jesus told him to sell all his belongings. The point being that sure he can love Christ and be rich, but if he wanted to go that one step further and become a disciple then he had to give everything.
Not everyone is cut out to be a full time disciple. To be minister in jesus names requires dedication and sacrifice.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Being a Christian myself im struggling to see how one can view anything from the Vatican as Christians?

This is not a attack on individual catholics. There are many who do strive to be Christians, even in the clergy and are good people. This thread is more directed at the Vatican and pope.

The Vatican has massive wealth and massive buildings.
To be a Christian is to be christ like right?

You don't seem to know Christ. Let me show you,

Matthew 28:18 "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Now "To be a Christian is to be Christ like" right? That is, have all authority in heaven and on earth !

As for "massive wealth and massive buildings"

Revelation 21:10 "the Holy City, Jerusalem, .....The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

Lol the Pope and the Catholics ARE the true Christians. The Protestants are splitters who split off from the true Church when things didn't go their way. I'll take my ball and go home kind of thing.
Amazing

a reply to: ketsuko

the problem is not Jesus referring to Peter as a rock. The problem is the 15 centuries political power of Rome that shaped everything in Europe and its overseas colonies. Today we see how hard it is to get out of that dark heritage. Francis fails so far. I am not his judge, history will be. He should follow Benedict, if he is honest to his words 2 years ago, that he would resign if the reform he proposes fails. There is no reform by now. Where are the council of 8 cardinals intended to reform the Curia? but seems his goal wasn't reform as initially said, but something completely else.

a reply to: damwel

the Catholics are true Christians. Half of all Christians are Catholics. One cannot accuse the common believers who pray and put hope for better future to the same merciful Lord Jesus, the way as their brothers and sisters from other churches do. Let make the difference between corrupt officials and the mass of believers.



The Catholic world should have more say in the matters of the Catholic church. Jesus didn't come to establish a dictatorship or a theocratic monarchy.
If there are popular polls, many of the decisions of Rome would have been cancelled by the majority Catholics.

The pope speaking as ultimate authority on earth is absurd. He is not infallible. Rather fallible on questions like migration waves, condoms, how many children to be breed and with which race. Francis didn't pronounce even one new dogma until now (that is considered infallible). Only the canonizations of saints. All the rest, including encyclicals, are fallible words.

It doesn't mean all of them are wrong. In fact Francis had great words at times. I was happy to hear the pope cares for the global climate change wants a green world and bigger social justice for the most vulnerable. Let not forget that part of those most vulnerable masses of catholics are exactly in latin american countries.

However, Francis somehow changed tone in the last months. It was a shock the words recently that Jesus sent his disciples on a mission comparable to that of Muslim invasions and especially ISIS. One can wonder, whose people does Francis serve, God's people who profess the belief in Jesus Christ, or those of our human brothers and sisters who profess their belief in Mohammad, and who do not hide their intentions regarding the Christian world.

Dalai Lama spoke better of Europe, saying the migrants although deserving compassion, are just too many for Europe. Germany must remain Germany, not an Arab country, said Dalai Lama. So,...

The pope failed in his policy of reforms. He speaks controversy after controversy, offending practically all kinds of people: both those who have many kids (who should not multiply like rabbits), and those who don't (Europe compared to old barren woman). The controversies don't end with the sexual issues but go into the supernatural.

Francis still has the chance to walk out with dignity as his predecessor Benedict did.

If "Jesus" were actually real, for sake of argument let's assume he was...

He would of flogged the Pope with a stick and told them to repent of their wickedness while threatening them that his Father and a Host of Angeles would turn their "House" to dust.

"Christian" is just a word, given special meaning by those of the "I'm more right than you are" in the world of organized religion, AKA the money and power hungry.

Religion is nothing more than a sham. Faith and spirituality in a higher power is all that is needed, and that higher power doesn't give two expletives if you call yourself Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Buddist, Pentecostal, Baptist, Hara Krishna, or anything else, because the higher power (call it God if you want) doesn't have one damn thing to do with religion.

a reply to: Ove38

Yes, but I believe that's the spiritual city and not the earthly one. IMO it's one thing to say we have riches in heaven and the spiritual and another thing to say we have them in the worldly.

They operate by different rules.

It's like Catholic and Jesus are two completely different things.

I think the stereotypical preacher/televangelist is a close analogue to "Catholic" (in being hypocritical) and "Jesus" is more like a hippie troublemaker.

This is how I would explain to to an outsider.

Jesus would havew the same to say at the Vatican as he did when he flipped out in the temple.

Terrible organization

a reply to: crazyewok

Don't get me wrong, I am not all in with Catholicism or the Vatican here, but I am pointing out that there some legitimate reasons for them to have a lot of wealth.

Part of the Church's problem with this came from its past where it went through a long period of being the institution of choice for the nobility of Europe to warehouse their extra sons and daughters to keep them from making trouble with the inheritance. Such people were not there with actual vocation and so politics and secular ambitions became common in the church. At the same time, it gave the church access to money, land, and power through those same ties.

That's always a bad combination.

a reply to: crazyewok

It's also considered idolatry to pray to and bow down to said relics as they do. It's written that the way to God is THROUGH JESUS, NOT some priest, NOT Jesus' mother, NOT ANYTHING nor ANYONE other than JESUS, the SON of God. Why does a self appointed supposed Christian Church preach the exact opposite?! And WHY do they push every poor person on earth to kick out as many mouths as possible, but can't feed them? WHY do so-called religious overseers tell people in the HIV capital country of the entire world NOT TO USE CONDOMS? I see NOTHING Christian, worthy to represent God or GOOD in or of that "church". It's just another huge joke on the world, and just like islam, should be relegated to the distant dark past. And NO...I highly doubt Jesus would approve...he would likely be in tears and ashamed of something like that would have the gall to claim to have been established in his Father's name.