The Wisdom of Jesus Christ

a reply to: Akragon

Have you ever heard of the Bibles angels referred to as "the throne of God?"

The throne of God in the Bible is WHERE God rules from, heaven, and never describes WHO he rules.


These people knew the Bible too.

Ok back from work.

a reply to: Padawan Szarah Googlmiser

originally posted by: Padawan Szarah Googlmiser
a reply to: coomba98

Like I said, Sophia created the earth not the true God, like you said.

Where did I say this Padawan? The Father in Pleroma is not the Demiurge.

originally posted by: Padawan Szarah Googlmiser
a reply to: coomba98
Don't play games, I didn't say you said Yaldabaoth created himself.
You said "every Gnostic believes his God created the world."

Where did I say this? I said every Gnostic sect calls the Demiurge 'The Creator God'. Never said they worshipped him unless it was the 'satanic' side of Gnosticism, as the Demiurge is the devil in that mythology. You gotta read what is put in front of you Padawan Googlemiser and not make things up.

originally posted by: Padawan Szarah Googlemiser
a reply to: coomba98
As I also said the demiurge can copy, not create, he would be able to make more, inferior planets. I have read it, how do you think I knew where to look. Not Google like you.

[sigh]

Ok, Akragon has made me take my laziness away with his references so I will now open my Nag Hammadi library out.

So, page 110 of the Nag Hammadi library within the manuscript of The Apocryphon of John.

'He became strong and created for himself other aeons'

Page 111 of the same book and manuscript.

"And the archons created seven powers for themselves, and the powers created for themselves six angels for each one until they became 365 angels"

"And having created everything he organized according to the model of the first aeons which had come into being, so that he might create them like the indestructible ones."

Page 112 of the same book and manuscript.

"And when he saw the multitude of the angels which he had created"

Page 113 of the same manuscript, this ones a long one.

"And he said to the authorities which attend him, ‘Come, let us create a man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that his image may become a light for us.’
And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence with the characteristics which were given.
And each authority supplied a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form).
He created a being according to the likeness of the first, perfect Man.
And they said, ‘Let us call him Adam, that his name may become a power of light for u s.
“And the powers began: the first one, goodness, created a bonesoul;
and the second, foreknowledge, created a sinew-soul; the third,
divinity, created a flesh-soul; and the fourth, the lordship, created
a marrow-soul; the fifth, kingdom created a blood-soul; the sixth,
envy, created a skin-soul; the seventh, understanding, created a hairsoul.
And the multitude of the angels attended him and they received from the powers the seven substances of the natural (form) in order to create the proportions of the limbs and the proportion of the rump and the proper working together of each of the parts.
“ The first one began to create the head...."

That's a lot of creating Padawan Googlemiser, it keeps going as im sure you have read.... Have you actually read this manuscript Padawan Googlemiser?

Now Page 121 of same manuscript,

"They created a counterfeit spirit, who resembles the Spirit who had descended, so as to pollute the souls through it."

ok im gonna stop there as I have a life Padawan Googlemiser. But hell that's a whole lota creating the Demiurge did.

I will add to Akragon's statement of:

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: [post=20797904]

Let me quote it from the book


Yaldabaoth is the chief ruler.
He took great Power (dynamis) from his mother,
Left her, and moved away from his birthplace.
He assumed command,
Created realms for himself
With a brilliant flame that continues to exist even now.

Created realms...... realms:

A definition of realms Padawan Googlemiser:
"a kingdom."
"a field or domain of activity or interest."
"a primary biogeographical division of the earth's surface."

And this is in plain black and white English, Padawan Googlemiser. I don't know why you cant understand this super simple stuff.

Summers Eve / Akragon = 6 ( I lowered the number to make you feel better but its actually much higher Padawan)
Padawan Googlemiser = 0

Coomba98... sorry

Summers Eve
(Your female friendly companion.)

a reply to: Akragon

I see your juggling two of Padawan Googlemisers accounts. What a strange Padawan hay.

Thanks for making me pull my finger out and actually provide references. Before I didn't really think I needed to as this stuff is common knowledge.

I also agree that the The Apocryphon of John is an accepted manuscript for all Gnostics. Kinda like Genesis is to all Abrahamic Religions (excluding Gnosticism). From my understanding that it.

Funny thing is I have not read the Nag Hammadi library since I think it was early Feb this year, and still I remember more than Padawan understands. lol. Gotta say its my favourite mythology of all the Abrahamic religions.

Coomba98

a reply to: coomba98

I see your juggling two of Padawan Googlemisers accounts.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: coomba98

I see your juggling two of Padawan Googlemisers accounts.

Ahh crap maybe I should have elaborated, sorry.

Responding to:
Padawan Szarah Googlemiser.
Padawan JoshuaCox Googlemiser.

Sorry my bad. I definitely know your not Padawan Googlemiser, your ok in my mind.

a reply to: coomba98

You obviously haven't read it and are just typing what you see.

The demiurge can copy what exists, as I have said. Himself, this planet, neither were his creation as he can't create. His creations are copies of himself or this planet and inferior to the originals.

Same goes for the first perfect man, it wasn't his creation. He only copied what was previously made.

Any power he has (to make man) was orchestrated by Sophia.

On the Origin of the World the saviour creates the earth.

And man.

Large quotes don't make you knowledgeable. If you don't know what I am talking about, you don't know the texts.

Large rants don't equal quality statements.

You used words but said almost nothing and display an evident lack of understanding.

Copying something that exists is not creating because it already exists.

And no texts have him as the creator.

The man that he made, was not his power but Sophia's given to get him to make man.

He doesn't know either so don't feel bad.

a reply to: coomba98

Not a word you say contradicts anything I have said.

If you understood the difference between creating something that already exists (another planet, himself as other Archons) and creating something that doesn't exist, you wouldn't be so confused.

He didn't create the earth and he didn't create man.

He copied this planet and the perfect man that was made by Aeons or Sophia.

Or on A of J, Sophia GAVE him some of her power TO create man. Her power, her creation and her plan.


When you show a better understanding of the material I will discuss it with you.

But that might be a while.

a reply to: coomba98

I can understand you thinking you understand, it makes you feel smart.

But you are so unaware of what is going on and just want in on the convo.

But wanting to understand and understanding are not the same. When you quote sections thinking they are contradicting what I say, without knowing what it is really saying from beginning to end, it is obvious you are not understanding anything.

Not even what I am saying.

And I have no problem telling you I don't have any other accounts than this, can't even imagine why you would think so.

Hit the books Jiffy Lube.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Szarah

no... Sophia created him

not what he created... which was the world we know...

I just quoted the text... show me otherwise

Where I showed you otherwise was when Sophia placed the throne in the midst of the cloud. That throne was earth.

So Sophia created the earth.

And I have also shown from the Paraphrase of Shem that the Saviour creates man and earth.

In fact, not one text has the demiurge creating man without help from Sophia or creating the earth.

On the O of the W, he assembles earth from Sophia's creating chaotic matter.

That's just assembling from preexisting material. Not creating.

I rest my case.

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: Akragon

First, your not mentioning that the only reason the man came to life was because of the spirit of Sophia, as the text clearly says.

You stated his intent, not the source of the power that actually gave life to the inanimate man. Sophia.

In the Paraphrase of Shem, The Saviour:

"I clothed myself in the beast, and I made a great request of Nature: that heaven and earth come into existence, in order that all the light might rise up. "

It goes on..." On account of my (Saviour) request nature arose..."

This is saying the Saviour and Nature (Sophia prob.) created heaven and earth. The demiurge is called Samael because he is blind and in ignorant.


I won't quote it all but here is a link

Paraphrase of Shem

I really wish you got what is meant, or didn't discard my quotes, but here you can't even come close to saying he can create.

And I already explained that he thinks his power to create is his because he does not know that it comes from Sophia because he is ignorant. As I quoted.

He can say "let's do..." but he is a created being given the power to create man intentionally, therefore it was not him but Sophia whose Spirit gave man life.

One final quote for everyone.

"Now the archon who is weak has three names. the first is Yaltabaoth, the secon Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come."

The demiurge is an idiot, is not God, and has no power OF HIS OWN. Had the aeons not wanted man to exist, he would not have been able to make us.

Coomba said "Every Gnostic thinks his God created the earth."

Then he says the demiurge did. Well the Gnostics God was not the demiurge, so Coomba f'd up.

And the God of the Gnostics is unknowable. But never would they have believed God would create an imperfect world.

Sophia's rebellion is the only reason this world exists. The demiurge didn't create it, she did. Or the Saviour depending on the text.

Now I rest my case.

Now from the Hypostasis of the archon's:


They had taken some soil from the earth and modeled the man after their own body and after the image of God (Sophia) that had appeared to them in the waters. They said "Come, let us lay hold of it by means of the form we have modeled, so that it may see a male counterpart [...], and we may seize it with the form that we have modeled"- not understanding the force of God, BECAUSE OF THEIR POWERLESSNESS. And he breathed into his face; and the man came to have a soul (and remained) upon the ground many days. BUT THEY COULD NOT MAKE HIM RISE BECAUSE OF THEIR POWERLESSNESS....

Now all these things came to pass BY THE WILL OF THE FATHER OF THE ENTIRETY. AFTERWARDS, the Spirit saw the soul-endowed man upon the ground. And the spirit came forth from the Adamantine land; IT DESCENDED AND CAME TO DWELL WITHIN HIM, AND THAT MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.

Yet another text proving that the demiurge has no power to create or give life
The man became a living soul because of the Spirit above.

I love when people (Comba) pretend they know what they are talking about.

Then I get to do this. It's too much fun exposing people who try and pretend they are knowledgeable.

Hypostasis(reality) of the Archons(rulers)

a reply to: Padawan Szarah Googlemiser

Where did i say the Gnostics worship The Demiure? U keep saying i say things when i didnt. Show me the post.

Also where does it say the Throne is earth? Show me the text. Padawan Googlemiser.

You know people can read the prior posts and see what is actually posted Padawan Googlemiser.

Nice rant above by the way. Shame it didnt contribute to the discussion.

1 point for me.

Coomba98.. sorry

Summers Eve
(Your female friendly companion)

a reply to: coomba98

Didn't say you did. You said:

" Every Gnostic believes his God created the world.". Which is false, the True God is unknowable.

Then you said "The demiurge created the world.". Which he didn't, man or earth.

So if you believe both statements to be true that you said, you would have to believe that the demiurge is God, because you said he created the world AND that the creator was the Gnostics God.

The creators of both man and earth are the Aeons, differing from book to book, but always an Aeon.

Even when Sophia transfers her Power to Yaldabaoth it was to do her will. Her Power her plan, he just doesn't know it and neither did you or Akragon because you miss crucial points of the text that when noticed make clear that the sections you quoted are telling you exactly what I said they are.

If you don't notice or read ALL the books you miss a recurring and known theme, that the demiurge thinks he is the creator and God because of his blindness. It is a total illusion though as the only power he has is to make inferior copies of things that exist already. He can't create even the first planet or man without the Aeons doing it in secret.

It is a major theme in the book and belief system.

a reply to: coomba98
It's as if you only read where he talks about creating man and assume he really did.

But if you really read it you would see that he only believes that he did because he is ignorant of the Power that ACTUALLY made it happen. The Aeons, Sophia or the Saviour usually, are the true creators.

a reply to: Szarah


You also know of course that all of these texts were written in opposition to the OT...

Said god was the creator god in both systems, except the OT proclaims this creator god to be the one true God...

The gnostic texts claim this same creator god to be false, a lesser god then the Father of Jesus... but none the less "the creator"... this is why gnostic texts quote this god using the OT

a reply to: Akragon

I wouldn't say opposition, as they read the the Biblical books too.

But obviously the demiurge is Yahweh, why WOULDN'T I know that.


Knowledge of your enemies is wisdom.

And you know that I know this. If I know everything I have just stated and don't know who the demiurge is based off I would be a dumbass.

Was there a point to that question?

a reply to: Akragon

But I have already proven in 3 books that the demiurge is not the true creator.


HE ONLY BELIEVES, OUT OF IGNORANCE, THAT HE IS.

I have supplied all the quotes to prove this.


The Jews obviously believed the demiurge and wrote what THEY believed.

If the "Gnostics" thought he was the creator it is like saying Yahweh IS God.

They didn't believe that he was a god at all, just chief archon. Lesser god is not the same thing as an archon.

And they never thought or wrote that the demiurge was the creator.

You are basing this off misunderstanding the metaphor throne, and by not reading the whole creation of man in all the texts.

Not in one does his power create either, he always has hidden hands doing the creating and doesn't realize it.

Because he is blind and ignorant.

a reply to: Szarah

No you actually haven't...

and the point of that question was the fact that in both systems YHWH/demiurge... is the creator of both the physical world and humans...

Secret john even goes into the details of the creation of man... by him and his minions

a reply to: Akragon

I actually have. Secret John says Sophia gave him the power to do it.

Every other text is the same or has the Saviour doing it.


It's a common misconception. But he is not the true creator, the power was given to him to do it. The other creation story has the Saviour doing both earth and man and the third has Ialdabaoth unable to animate the man with a living soul and the Spirit does it for him but he thinks he did it.

Heavily reliant on that one book huh? Well even in that one Sophia chooses to give him the Power thus orchestrating it from behind the scenes. And She makes earth.


If you can't understand that then I guess we don't have much to talk about. That is a very stereotypical myth about the demiurge that beginners think. Like pre-neophyte.

To sum it up, an incorrect oversimplification.