The Wisdom of Jesus Christ

a reply to: Akragon

I quoted it from the book. She PLACED the throne there for him i.e made it.

Also in On the Origin of the World, she creates a shadow that vomits bile that becomes chaos and matter, all before Yaldabaoth is even made.

In this he just organizes pre created matter.


Hypostasis of the Archons (reality of the rulers) and Apocryphon of John the creation man only succeeds because of the Second on high giving them life.


It's everyone's nature to assume that what they think is true, even to say that the texts say what they think it does.

But as much as you have read them so have I. I read the introductions and the footnotes from the man who translated tall if not most himself. Not that he is the only one but I can assure you that the demiurge can't create in any of the books. Maybe there is one exception, but just maybe.

a reply to: Szarah

I quoted it from the book. She PLACED the throne there for him i.e made it.

Let me quote it from the book

Sophia surrounded him with a brilliant cloud,
Put a throne in the center part of the cloud
So that no one would see it.
[Except for the Holy Spirit called the Mother of the Living]
She named him Yaldabaoth.

Yaldabaoth is the chief ruler.
He took great Power (dynamis) from his mother,
Left her, and moved away from his birthplace.
He assumed command,
Created realms for himself
With a brilliant flame that continues to exist even now.

Also in On the Origin of the World, she creates a shadow that vomits bile that becomes chaos and matter, all before Yaldabaoth is even made.

that which she "vomited up" was her creation... Yaldaboth

. Not that he is the only one but I can assure you that the demiurge can't create in any of the books. Maybe there is one exception, but just maybe.

A. of John is one of the main texts is Gnostic beliefs... and most IF not all agree...

Said god was the creator of the physical world we know...

Feel free to show me otherwise

a reply to: Akragon

Exactly. He can copy, but not create. I said that. Sophia created this world and he made inferior copies.

She created him and he made inferior copies, like him but inferior.

But when he went to create man he could not give it life because it was a new creation of living matter. The Second saw what was going on and gave the human life and he believes he did it.

You should know this if you have been reading it for years.

a reply to: Szarah

no... Sophia created him

not what he created... which was the world we know...

I just quoted the text... show me otherwise

a reply to: Akragon

I already did it is in that quote. She made the throne. The throne is the earth.

Check my edited message above.

I told you what books to read and I think I will quote it and you will just claim it says something different like Sophia creating the throne which is the earth.

And people who read for years and don't get that the demiurge can't create but just copy what exists don't suddenly figure it out.

a reply to: Szarah

no...

said throne is not the earth, but the rulership of that which wasn't created yet...

a reply to: Akragon

I don't mind if you interpret it that way, but the throne means earth, not the rulership. He made his own minions from himself and that event comes later. Before that is nothing to rule and what he is ruling are the Archons and she didn't make them. A throne is s physical object that exists, not a later hierarchy.

Any of us that are ruled by him made a choice, educated or not, to follow him. But the spirit in us is not from him. He fashioned the original humans but could not make them alive. You should know this.

I

a reply to: Akragon

Even your giant quote says He ASSUMED command... That means he was GIVEN command over a preexisting realm and planet. Then he copied them, not able to make non existent things just inferior copies.

a reply to: Szarah

He made his own minions from himself and that event comes later. Before that is nothing to rule and what he is ruling are the Archons and she didn't make them. A throne is s physical object that exists, not a later hierarchy.

She gave him that throne... which is a symbol of authority over something... which is created in the following verses after his head minions

He made the first seven rulers to reign in the seven spheres of heaven.
He made the next five rulers to reign in the five depths of the abyss.

He shared a portion of his fire with them,
But shared none of the power of Light he had received from his mother.

[He is ignorant darkness.
When the Light mingled into the darkness
the darkness shone.
When darkness mixed with the Light,
the Light diminished,
No longer Light nor darkness but dim.]

This dim ruler has three names:
Yaldabaoth is the first.
Saklas is the second.
Samael is the third.
He is blasphemous through his thoughtlessness.
He said “I am God, and there is no God but me!”
Since he didn’t know where his own Power originated.



Then he created his subminions which rule over the days of the year....


His rulers created seven Authorities for themselves.
Each of these Authorities created six demons apiece,
There came to be 365 demons altogether.

All of which was after he created the world in the previous verses

a reply to: Szarah

Even your giant quote says He ASSUMED command... That means he was GIVEN command over a preexisting realm and planet. Then he copied them, not able to make non existent things just inferior copies.

No...

He Took command with no regard... but over his own creation, which was why he had command

a reply to: Akragon


And if you go on to read A of J, Sophia creates with her power the first human.

Yaldabaoth is afraid and tries making one too. Pages describe the Archon who creates every little part. The only reason it moved is because the power of her spirit.


"The spirit is the power of the Mother, but he did not realize this because he lives in ignorance."

a reply to: Szarah

Yaldabaoth said to his subordinate demons:
“Let’s create a man according to the image of God
And our own likeness
So that his image will illuminate us.”

Again.. the creator

a reply to: Akragon

First, your not mentioning that the only reason the man came to life was because of the spirit of Sophia, as the text clearly says.

You stated his intent, not the source of the power that actually gave life to the inanimate man. Sophia.

In the Paraphrase of Shem, The Saviour:

"I clothed myself in the beast, and I made a great request of Nature: that heaven and earth come into existence, in order that all the light might rise up. "

It goes on..." On account of my (Saviour) request nature arose..."

This is saying the Saviour and Nature (Sophia prob.) created heaven and earth. The demiurge is called Samuel because he is blind as in ignorant.


I won't quote it all but here is a link

Paraphrase of Shem

I really wish you got what is meant, or didn't discard my quotes, bit here you can't even come close to saying he can create.

And I already explained that he thinks his power to create is his because he does not know that it comes from Sophia because he is ignorant. As I quoted.

He can say "let's do..." but he is a created being given the power to create man intentionally, therefore it was not him but Sophia whose Spirit gave man life.

a reply to: Akragon

He didn't create the earth and thinks he created man, he did not.

He has created nothing except the body of the first humans, that is it, and he used prexistent material.

a reply to: Szarah

This is interesting because it makes this "god" to be the creator of nothing but mud... lol

except that isn't what the texts say... and anyone who has actually read this book in detail is welcome to correct me

Were talking about one book here as far as i know... which is specific to "the Wisdom of Jesus Christ"

Secret John was direct... most gnostic texts were not

Said book is authority over most gnostic texts

a reply to: Akragon

Yeah I already did correct you with the texts verbatim, you are just not willing to be corrected.

Meanwhile I already know for a 100% fact that he is not a creator of anything. You have to rely on what you claim, that anyone who has read the texts knows what you think to strengthen your argument.

I have shown proof that Sophia placed the earth here, called metaphorically a throne.

Your suggested interpretation of that text's metaphor would be kingdom or empire.

The throne is from where one rules (earth).

A throne doesn't describe who one rules, you don't rule a throne (a chair).

A throne is where you rule. Any place a king sits could be called a throne. But not a being.

So the text you say is the authoritative one, and the others, all say what I am saying.

Your lone refuge is a misinterpretation of the metaphor throne, an inappropriate metaphor for a hierarchy of Archons. That is not a throne. Those are called SUBJECTS and he copied himself to make them so Sophia didn't make them.

If she didn't make them they can't be that throne.

Simple.

a reply to: Szarah









Ok

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: Akragon

Yeah I already did correct you with the texts verbatim, you are just not willing to be corrected.

Meanwhile I already know for a 100% fact that he is not a creator of anything. You have to rely on what you claim, that anyone who has read the texts knows what you think to strengthen your argument.

I have shown proof that Sophia placed the earth here, called metaphorically a throne.

Your suggested interpretation of that text's metaphor would be kingdom or empire.

The throne is from where one rules (earth).

A throne doesn't describe who one rules, you don't rule a throne (a chair).

A throne is where you rule. Any place a king sits could be called a throne. But not a being.

So the text you say is the authoritative one, and the others, all say what I am saying.

Your lone refuge is a misinterpretation of the metaphor throne, an inappropriate metaphor for a hierarchy of Archons. That is not a throne. Those are called SUBJECTS and he copied himself to make them so Sophia didn't make them.

If she didn't make them they can't be that throne.

Simple.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Szarah

Ok

originally posted by: Szarah

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Szarah

Ok

Bout time.