EPA Just Declared War On Millions of Car Owners

The creation of ethynol is the most environmentally unfriendly thing there is. I can't understand how those people can't see that. Are they blind or something?

a reply to: rickymouse

Nope, just stupid or in on it and both.

a reply to: smurfy

Interesting....

I do mostly city driving, across from one side of town to the other town to the other in 60 km/h zones. It only gets on the highway once, maybe twice a month and the light has never come on in mine. And I have 2 of these new gen diesels rated at Euro 5 emission levels.

So maybe the issue is make specific as I'm not rich enough to own a Jag.

I will concede though that to get full economy potential out of a diesel it needs longer runs. Using one for a three minute drive to the shops is not what they are really for if that is all one needs from their car. They are best suited for commuters like me or people who tow things as they have enough torque to move mountains at very low revs compared to a petrol.

I work for a company that sells gas, maintaining and testing stations is my job. We have more problems with E-10 tanks, lines and dispensers than any thing else. Biggest problem being water in tanks. Ethanol blended fuels are unstable, easily effected by moisture, temp and absorbs moisture quickly.

87 octane E-10 starts life as 84 octane 100% gas which is then blended with up to 10% ethanol to achieve a octane grade of 87. In a moist environment, the alcohol absorbs the moisture, which in turn creates phase separation in the fuel, as this process starts to do what we call "dropout", the moisture drops to the bottom leaving you with 84 octane fuel, which should then be removed because it no longer meets the octane requirement, but it doesn't and is almost always sold to the consumer. It creates a very gummy varnish, corrosive to engines (especially aluminum), boils off in high temps and on and on I could go. It's just bad stuff all the way around. These issues will obviously only worsen with a E-15 blend.


This has everything to do with big corp and political buyouts.

Increasing ethanol also allows gas stations to add more water to there tanks.

This allows some flaky station operators to sell more gas then they buy from the oil companies

This will damage engines with fuel injection. and can cause some fuel pumps to ice during the winter.

originally posted by: ANNED
Increasing ethanol also allows gas stations to add more water to there tanks.

This allows some flaky station operators to sell more gas then they buy from the oil companies

This will damage engines with fuel injection. and can cause some fuel pumps to ice during the winter.

Gas stations do not add water to their tank. It's not compatible and drops to the bottom of the tanks. Sub pump motors are usually 4-7 inches off the bottom, for this reason, Having a little water is not that bad, unless we're talking ethanol blends, the water still has to be removed. The State Corporate Commission has inspectors that do nothing but drive around inspecting stations. Having water in a tank only cost store owners more money.

originally posted by: mtnshredder

I work for a company that sells gas, maintaining and testing stations is my job. We have more problems with E-10 tanks, lines and dispensers than any thing else. Biggest problem being water in tanks. Ethanol blended fuels are unstable, easily effected by moisture, temp and absorbs moisture quickly.

87 octane E-10 starts life as 84 octane 100% gas which is then blended with up to 10% ethanol to achieve a octane grade of 87. In a moist environment, the alcohol absorbs the moisture, which in turn creates phase separation in the fuel, as this process starts to do what we call "dropout", the moisture drops to the bottom leaving you with 84 octane fuel, which should then be removed because it no longer meets the octane requirement, but it doesn't and is almost always sold to the consumer. It creates a very gummy varnish, corrosive to engines (especially aluminum), boils off in high temps and on and on I could go. It's just bad stuff all the way around. These issues will obviously only worsen with a E-15 blend.


This has everything to do with big corp and political buyouts.

Maybe you should contact motor manufacturers with your experiences.
Thing is, they are starting to recommend hE15, which has a greater amount of water, induced water that is, since research is showing that aluminium corrosion stops at a certain value of water added, and it then becomes a cleaner of all the gunk, while the aluminium oxide stops the corrosion, same as on a ally car body. There's not much mention though of ancillary delivery equipment other than there is no recommend type of station holding tank as yet.
It seems like they are only using controlled experiments to get the engine systems okay for he15 thus far.

More reading, (scroll down or use the blue link for he15)

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: YouSir

Ummm...ethanol is a solvent...it cleans the residue from your fuel tank and lines and sends it...through your filter into your engine...

Nowhere did you make or substantiate any claims that ethanol is dirty. In fact its the dirty hydrocarbon fuels that are leaving deposits and residues, and the ethanol is cleaning it, as you said, as you are making the claim.

There is still a problem with the original wording.

There are also 50 million Flex Fuel cars in operation.

Maybe its the fact the hydrocarbon companies don't want to refine their product to where it wont create sludge to begin with. Maybe its the fact you are comparing apples to oranges-you think humidity on marine engines, which are running on WATER with an intake hovering over a lakebed or seabed, is anything compared to the auto industry? Maybe you just got mixed up, Im not sure.

My point was the hilarious juxtaposition being used. Which is just nonsense and doesn't even make sense when considering the properties of the fuels involved.

a reply to: boncho


Ummm...maybe you refused to address my points on how ethanol degrades and dissolves aluminum...fiberglass and plastic storage vessels...Maybe...you also forgot to address the shelf life and phase separation that...ALWAYS...occurs in ethanol based or additive fuels...Maybe...you also overlooked the hydroscopic properties of ethanol as an H2O attractant...Perhaps...you simply overlooked as well the fact that hydroscopic reactions actually...precipitate...phase separation...

Regardless.of the "flex" fuel vehicles that are available...not one of them mitigates phase separation...perhaps if fuel suppliers provided to the consumer the date of manufacture and the end user point of sale informed of the remaining time before phase separation...at the pump...The consumer could make an informed decision on whether to add a product to his/her vehicle which may/will cause harm and initiate additional maintenance/repair costs...

Pray enlighten us on how much sense mandating a fuel which creates more problems than value makes...?

Oh...BTW...my boats don't run on water...they're fueled by hydrocarbons and wind...

However...if you have an energy efficient method for electrolysis...then by all means I could run my vehicles on water...or at least the hydrogen and oxygen...


YouSir

a reply to: harvestdog

My 2015 toyota says E10 MAX...whose going to pay to upgrade my engine? haha

originally posted by: AnonymousMoose
a reply to: harvestdog

My 2015 toyota says E10 MAX...whose going to pay to upgrade my engine? haha

You.

a reply to: harvestdog

That really quite dovetails the meme of agenda 21 trying to get us out of cars and on bike paths. Hit that nail on the head you did.

The solution is simple...

IF there comes a time when gasoline is diluted with Ethanol, to the point where it becomes harmful to engines, and this becomes the only gasoline available, and it starts destroying engines.... All we need do is start launching class-action lawsuits. Lots of publicity, lots of public shaming... Public pressure will ensure things are changed, and money changes hands.

Now, based on what i've seen here, it sounds like it is a proposal, not something that is set in stone, and that if it happened, it would be a minuscule increase, and that fuel will still be available that is not harmful to older engines.

I drive a car from '98....i can tell you for sure, if my car sustained damage, as a result of a fuel formulation change, you can bet your ass i'll be suing the living daylights out of multiple parties.

I can buy ethanol free fuel for my boat and car.
www.pure-gas.org...

a reply to: harvestdog

This is the beginning of the end for gas run cars. There was a headline about, North America going Electric by 2020.

Oil Crisis
www.bloomberg.com...

Electric cars could be nearing a critically important tipping point for explosive growth
www.businessinsider.com...

The 2020s Could Be the Decade When Electric Cars Take Over
www.technologyreview.com...

a reply to: bonchowell the real reason they are adding it is because it shortens the time you can store gas before it rots. while gas is dirt cheap oil companies don't want you to stock pile it for when they decide to jump up the price again and yes it is bad for your engines i have bought 4 different push mowers in last four years why because the gas has destroyed then how so well this blended gas breaks down quickly the ethanol breaks down into water and other components the water messes up the lawn mower engines. and yes i add stabilisers to the gas just like the mower companies recommend and i use the super blend of gas not the regular. i say corn has no place as a fuel at all.