Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

Nothing to say to me, yet, you keep typing....

Why should any American "suck it up" when a State tries to legislate their privates? Trans* Americans have the right to use the facilities that agree with their gender, just like everyone else.

Demanding/schemanding ... my god that's an old worn out mantra. No one should have to "demand" their Constitutional rights at this stage, which is impossible because of all the good conservative/Christofascist States and right-wing authoritarians that don't seem to have gotten the memo about "individual liberty."

Oh look at the loaded meaningless and utterly out-of-place terms you tossed in ... "agitating" and "collective" ... etc.

Equal rights don't "affect" the rest of society. Shall I remind you of these truisms though the next time you're crying for special rights for Christians?

Seems fair.

~~~~~

And STILL talking to me ... you "seem to remember in one of these threads" ... quote something actual and real if you want a response. This current hoorah started after the right lost on Obergefell ... and these spiteful attempts to get revenge (like North Carolina and MS, etc.) are just that ... these will be dismissed in time as well.

I beg you to remember that you are supposedly ignoring me and my posts. Remember?

a reply to: imsoconfused

lol looks like a great place to get aids

a reply to: Gryphon66

Just weird that some mods would censor some of my posts. This is ATS!

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: redhorse

originally posted by: luthier
Well some sociology would tell you why mixed with psychology and anthro.

My wife is Polish. I have spent years in Europe as well. Poland doesn't have unisex bathrooms. Paris. Everywhere. Germany many places I went. Italy. Lots of places. Spain I drank to much and don't remember much accept the tapas is San sabastion is worth selling all my things right now and moving.

So let's compromise make unisex bathrooms with female only areas. Except what are you going to do check for trans women? Its possible you already peed right next to a trans woman and you lived to see another day.

Oh I probably have. I don't mind peeing next to a trans woman. How many times and how many different ways do I have to say that isn't the issue? In fact, that isn't the issue for most people that are uncomfortable with this. I know that you really, REALLY want it to be, because then yeah... You're right we're that's awful and unfair. I understand that you are invested in everyone who opposes this being some trans hating bigot, but it's just not the case no matter how many times you repeat it and try to conflate an assumed bigotry with a genuine fear of sexual predators (that are probably, not trans BTW. There I explained it AGAIN). It is a dishonest tactic.

I have to go see a lady about a horse, so I'm out for a while.

Or I have worked with trans kids in antibullying programs and I am more concerned with them than adults that can make decisions for themselves. Two years ago I taught a kid who was blinded in one eye from being punched in the head and having her orbital collapse into her eye socket.

So yeah it's an issue for me. Even as a strait guy with three kids. Two of them girls.

You know I get that, and honestly that's awesome. But maybe you should work with some girls that have been sexually assaulted too. You seem to have zero empathy and understanding for girls and women in that situation and frankly, you come across as callous and... kind of a bully, which is ironic. This is not a cut and dried situation, somebody loses here the way things are headed which is sad and scary. But to be honest it seems to me that the members of the trans community that are vocal about this and their supporters are not willing to compromise at all and are belligerent, dismissive and divorced from reality. And having said that I should probably try to spend more real life time with transsexuals, although, that is surprisingly difficult to do in Montana.

I come across as a bully. Thats a strong claim with out an example. It sounds like you are a victim here again.

I haven't worked with girls that have been raped? That is another demographic I see frequently. In fact I teach women's self defence. I am not defending raped woman here. I am defending trans kids and further the adults as well.

If you want me to explain my position on rape let's do that in a forum about abused women.

I have a lot to say about it. I lost a best friend to suicide growing up who was raped. We literally grew up together as neighbors. She was a lesbian. Not sure before or after or if that matters.

What I have no time for is making laws out of fear of a possibility. Franklin warned of this and how it used to scare people.

Your associating my disregard of your argument and my strong defence of mine as a bully tactic. Did I call you a name, insult your hair, your eyes, your shape, your family?

No I insulted your arguement by saying this isn't a focus area and isn't where the crime of rape happens. Iean honestly maybe you are dulled by the fact it happens every day but college campuses and partying in general are a huge source of this. A massive one. One that accounts for nearly the entire age demographic of those women. Thats how oftne it happens.

I am extremely out spoken about that. About not loosing your senses in a place with people you don't know. Staying cognitive enough to make decisions and make sound judgments about people. Don't take guys drinks etc.

You called me a victim blamer for that. In reality I can reach statistically far more woman that way then over a damn trans bathroom case. Seriously. Your spreading fear. Unless you can show me some other data.

In which case I will say yes absolutely we need to move towards locking bathroom stalls and possibly all single use.

For me to denu liberty to an entire demographic would be the absolutle gravest of circumstances. Like world war or massive outbreak of a definite casual relationship.


Hey maybe your bullying me by calling me a bully because this is how my mind works.

I also have a philosophy degree (from years ago). I argue. I was trained to argue in debate. Not that i am saying I am good at it but I think that way. I was taught to defend my position with thought, and listen to the opposing position. I also just throw the ad hominem back when it all breaks down because well that's just a good ole f u to bring it to the place.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

Nothing to say to me, yet, you keep typing....

Why should any American "suck it up" when a State tries to legislate their privates? Trans* Americans have the right to use the facilities that agree with their gender, just like everyone else.

Demanding/schemanding ... my god that's an old worn out mantra. No one should have to "demand" their Constitutional rights at this stage, which is impossible because of all the good conservative/Christofascist States and right-wing authoritarians that don't seem to have gotten the memo about "individual liberty."

Oh look at the loaded meaningless and utterly out-of-place terms you tossed in ... "agitating" and "collective" ... etc.

Equal rights don't "affect" the rest of society. Shall I remind you of these truisms though the next time you're crying for special rights for Christians?

Seems fair.

~~~~~

And STILL talking to me ... you "seem to remember in one of these threads" ... quote something actual and real if you want a response. This current hoorah started after the right lost on Obergefell ... and these spiteful attempts to get revenge (like North Carolina and MS, etc.) are just that ... these will be dismissed in time as well.

I beg you to remember that you are supposedly ignoring me and my posts. Remember?

Espeacially when they think they have a right for gays/trans people to never be seen or know exist..


No gay or trans person wants to force others to be gay or trans...

It's conservatives who want them not to be that way...

a reply to: JoshuaCox

My favorite is when people call it a choice. As if someone would choose to be bullied and beat up and ostrasized just because. Even as a heterosexual male it's not a choice it's just the way I'm wired. I'm attracted to those whom I'm attracted to I don't choose who I am attracted to.

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: JoshuaCox

My favorite is when people call it a choice. As if someone would choose to be bullied and beat up and ostrasized just because. Even as a heterosexual male it's not a choice it's just the way I'm wired. I'm attracted to those whom I'm attracted to I don't choose who I am attracted to.

I think it can be a choice. I think some people just love the person. I think of Rumi in this case and Shams of Tabriz. Maybe they were physically intiment maybe not. It's certainly seems so. Their friendship and mystical conversation grew a love that probably over flowed. Rumi wrote more than Chaucer for goodness sake. All from this divine inspititation of having a deep friend and mystical connection. I think at that point love is love.

So shame on you Christians who focus on homosexuals. Jesus knew what love was. He wasn't burning these kind of people at the stake. He was more concerned with injustice and elevating the human spirit.

I know though some people are just gay. Some are strait by natural instinct. I think the mind however and mysticism and the study of self can eliminate some barriers. When deeper subjects can be talked about like most talk about the weather and real self understanding happens with your friend who is like a mirror a connection is made. It doesn't have to be sexual at all. Just saying for some people it's the mind and "soul"

For me I like girls. Never had that with dudes. Chicas yeah. So I guess there are all kinds of people and we need to lay off boxing them up.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
*snip*you believe in your political ideology that says you should use the power of the State (as North Carolina and others have done) to invade the privacy of some Americans and attempt to render them as second-class citizens!

I know I wasn't going to respond, but wow....."invade the privacy"?? Really? You mean like the privacy of this girl? -

Ask this 13-Year-Old Girl if Transgender Bathrooms Pose a Threat

The lack of concern for her privacy, or that of any other girl, is appalling.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Gryph a good nite to you wish you well over and out

Things have almost reached rock bottom. A universal spiritual death has already touched us all, and physical death will soon flare up and consume us both and our children—but as before we still smile in a cowardly way and mumble without tounges tied. But what can we do to stop it? We haven't the strength? We have been so hopelessly dehumanized that for today's modest ration of food we are willing to abandon all our principles, our souls, and all the efforts of our predecessors and all opportunities for our descendants—but just don't disturb our fragile existence. We lack staunchness, pride and enthusiasm. We don't even fear universal nuclear death, and we don't fear a third world war. We have already taken refuge in the crevices. We just fear acts of civil courage.

www.orthodoxytoday.org...

a reply to: Gryphon66

More Solzhenitsyn worth it in a time of falsehoods, lies indoctrination, and political correctness and group think for sjw agendas

We have been indoctrinated in political courses, and in just the same way was fostered the idea to live comfortably, and all will be well for the rest of our lives. You can't escape your environment and social conditions. Everyday life defines consciousness. What does it have to do with us? We can't do anything about it? But we can—everything. But we lie to ourselves for assurance. And it is not they who are to blame for everything—we ourselves, only we. One can object: But actually toy can think anything you like. Gags have been stuffed into our mouths. Nobody wants to listen to us and nobody asks us. How can we force them to listen? It is impossible to change their minds.

So in our timidity, let each of us make a choice: Whether consciously, to remain a servant of falsehood—of course, it is not out of inclination, but to feed one's family, that one raises his children in the spirit of lies—or to shrug off the lies and become an honest man worthy of respect both by one's children and contemporaries. And from that day onward he: Will not henceforth write, sign, or print in any way a single phrase which in his opinion distorts the truth. Will utter such a phrase neither in private conversation not in the presence of many people, neither on his own behalf not at the prompting of someone else, either in the role of agitator, teacher, educator, not in a theatrical role. Will not depict, foster or broadcast a single idea which he can only see is false or a distortion of the truth whether it be in painting, sculpture, photography, technical science, or music. Will not cite out of context, either orally or written, a single quotation so as to please someone, to feather his own nest, to achieve success in his work, if he does not share completely the idea which is quoted, or if it does not accurately reflect the matter at issue. Will not allow himself to be compelled to attend demonstrations or meetings if they are contrary to his desire or will, will neither take into hand not raise into the air a poster or slogan which he does not completely accept. Will not raise his hand to vote for a proposal with which he does not sincerely sympathize, will vote neither openly nor secretly for a person whom he considers unworthy or of doubtful abilities. Will not allow himself to be dragged to a meeting where there can be expected a forced or distorted discussion of a question. Will immediately talk out of a meeting, session, lecture, performance or film showing if he hears a speaker tell lies, or purvey ideological nonsense or shameless propaganda. Will not subscribe to or buy a newspaper or magazine in which information is distorted and primary facts are concealed. Of course we have not listed all of the possible and necessary deviations from falsehood. But a person who purifies himself will easily distinguish other instances with his purified outlook.

www.orthodoxytoday.org...

a reply to: JoshuaCox
For you the same thing I posted for gryphon from Alexander Solzhenitsyn who bravely stood up to the totalitarian thought police of the communists Nd told the whole world about the Soviet gulags.
www.orthodoxytoday.org...

Here's an update from Austin, I don't know what to think about it at this point. Oh, and there's a video of the news story in the link.

Source: kxan.com...

Alamo Drafthouse will open sixth location at Mueller

AUSTIN (KXAN) — Alamo Drafthouse founder, Tim League, is seeking input on the hot button issue of the moment, bathrooms and the genders able to use them.

He decided to scrap the approved bathroom for the new Mueller location which is currently under construction, and go back to the drawing board with Drafthouse Architect Richard Weiss.

“We’ve been thinking about what an inclusive commercial gender-neutral restroom design might look like so that these challenges are not even part of the dialogue,” League said in a Facebook post.

Their goal is to come up with an idea that will fulfill all needs while being comfortable and meeting the city code.

“It’s the stories you hear of transgender kids getting beat up in high school bathrooms,” League told KXAN. “That’s a real problem and like I say, you can’t necessarily change everybody’s mind immediately on these issues but you can hopefully by design eliminate conflict.”

All businesses in Austin with single-use restrooms must be gender neutral
The working draft, which was posted on Facebook, is one large bathroom with a section of urinals behind one door and individual stalls for seated toilets. League said he is considering a type of urinal both men and women can use. So, what does an all gender urinal look like?

“It’s new territory,” said Weiss. “It’s something we’re looking into. It’s essentially a urinal that has a throat that comes out it’s a deeper stall.”

Larger ADA accessible bathrooms would be across the hall and those would be equipped with baby changing stations.

“The ultimate goal is that everybody should be able to do what they want to do where they want to do it,” said Weiss.

When League started researching ideas, he said there was not much to go on.

He is certain the new inclusive bathroom will not include any female or male signs, and will likely serve as a model for all Drafthouse locations built in the future.

What do you think?

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: Gryphon66
*snip*you believe in your political ideology that says you should use the power of the State (as North Carolina and others have done) to invade the privacy of some Americans and attempt to render them as second-class citizens!

I know I wasn't going to respond, but wow....."invade the privacy"?? Really? You mean like the privacy of this girl? -

Ask this 13-Year-Old Girl if Transgender Bathrooms Pose a Threat

The lack of concern for her privacy, or that of any other girl, is appalling.

OH, I've learned not to read your posts for reliability so no worries in responding.

So, aside from the spin that "Conservative Review" is desperately trying to put on the story, that "Transgenders say women don't face danger in public bathrooms" (which is of course a another stinking lie) ... this has nothing to do with Trans* rights, a Trans* person in the restroom, etc. but just another sad story of someone taking advantage of kids, and another example of conservatives taking advantage of that kind of tragedy in a ridiculous attempt to make it about Trans* folks.

So, just to recap, you posted a story about a probably straight man taking advantage of a little girl in a public restroom that has nothing to do with any Trans* access to the facilities ... brilliant.

Catch up. We've established that the real issue here is the safety and privacy of these public spaces.

That issue is the one that we all need to be looking at, so that everyone can be safer in these places.

The only ones "invading privacy here" are the rank authoritarians, like you and the State of North Carolina, who want the government to verify genitalia ... because you can't conceive of the idea that Trans* Americans have the SAME rights as everyone else.

Another great example of Conservative desperation and willingness to use sad stories of child abuse for political advantage.

#forshame

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

Thank you for posting the quotes from Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Very appropriate.

The echo chamber is strong in here now... notably from men who are insisting on forcing their way into women's bathrooms with no thought for anyone's safety. I give you much credit for continuing to engage in an appropriate manner. Good for you.

I was reading about the testimony of the Border Patrol union chief testifying before congress about the increased trafficking on the border. He pointed out that when one makes it easy to break the law and little chance of being caught, criminal activity increases... he also spoke of the laws of supply and demand.... All of which apply here as well.

a reply to: seentoomuch

Thanks for posting the link and quote!

I've been looking for anything I could find about alternative solutions and creative ideas. I applaud this guy for being proactive and trying to innovate with everyone's needs (if not wants) addressed. Good for him!

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Thank you for posting that link. I suppose we can be thankful the creeper just wanted to take pics... but as noted in the article, who knows where those pics will end up... it's a scary thought.

I was reading an article earlier about surveys of men, and the numbers of men who said they had drugged women's drinks was crazy, and something like 35% said they would rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it.

The Border Patrol union chief testified before congress about "supply and demand" and how criminal activity naturally and predictably increases when we make it easy to break the law. We're just eliminating the laws and increasing the "supply" for the creepers' "demands."

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: DestroyDestroyDestroy

Oh right Modesty is so yesterday... Well if that were so then why don't transgender who haven't transitioned their sex organs just go in the bathroom with the guys instead of forcing all women to accept having guys in the bathroom ???????
Go on give me one reason

Why is it always assumed that it's a transgender man posing as a female who apparently doesn't own a pair of pants because his cock literally flops around in front of women's faces 24/7?

I never see anyone who is against trans bathroom rights argue that men would be offended if they saw a trans woman in a public bathroom. Do you really think women are so different from men that they would be traumatized by the sight of a penis? It's ridiculous, isn't it? Quit white knighting.

To address your question: it's not about sex organs. It's about identity. You know how you'd feel out of place and highly uncomfortable if you were forced to wear a pink tutu in public? Imagine if the men's bathroom was out of order and you were forced to use the women's public bathroom. You'd feel awkward, right? You'd feel like you don't belong there. Try to think about how a trans person would feel in that kind of environment.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Thank you for posting that link. I suppose we can be thankful the creeper just wanted to take pics... but as noted in the article, who knows where those pics will end up... it's a scary thought.

I was reading an article earlier about surveys of men, and the numbers of men who said they had drugged women's drinks was crazy, and something like 35% said they would rape a woman if they thought they could get away with it.

The Border Patrol union chief testified before congress about "supply and demand" and how criminal activity naturally and predictably increases when we make it easy to break the law. We're just eliminating the laws and increasing the "supply" for the creepers' "demands."

So apparently, men are the main issue here ... not Trans* folks nor even AGPs?

Should you request an alteration to your OP?

Amazing.

Fact after fact has been demonstrated here that shows clearly that the assertions made in the OP are either false, out of date, misunderstood, misappropriated and mislabeled.

The fundamental theory applied here ("Blanchard's Transsexualism Typology") has been roundly discredited ... EVEN by the originator, Ray Blanchard who has said that the previous work had been a "behavioral description versus an explanation of transsexualism" and that more research was needed (unsurprising as the whole theory originated in a few hundred interviews among cherry-picked prisoners). Link - Blanchard's Theory

Yet, anyone who dares speak out for the facts of the matter as opposed to a series of laced together disparate pieces of "evidence" (that have no relation to each other either logically or causally) is passive-aggressively decried as "the echo chamber."

This thread is typical political propagandizing at it's very best ... bait for bigots and balm for their confirmation bias.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Trans* folks do not claim, per se, "to think like another gender" ... they claim that they have, over a long period (diagnostically, at least two years) a consistent and comprehensive sense of self or identity that they are the opposite gender, neither gender, a mixture of genders, etc. This point has been continually made.

Actually this is the first time I have ever seen this point made, and frankly it sounds like you are trying to move the goalposts.

So you are saying that people who claim to be transgender are... confused. Well join the club. They need to rub some dirt on their id, walk it off, and join us in the real world. If I spent all my time navel gazing and pondering whether I was a boy or a girl, with a doctor not dismissing the idea "for over two years" I'm sure I'd be confused too.

You believe that you have struck on a clever way to dismiss Trans* individuals by continually focusing on your idea that to be Trans* means that someone "has direct experience of being the opposite sex."

That's your definition, not anyone else's.

Based on your definition.

So essentially, you set up the argument to fit your agenda and your contentions, that Trans* equal rights mean they want to expose themselves to others.

What I did was present a progression of deduction based on 'feelings' and 'empathy'. Since you were not able to counter it, you changed the argument to fit your agenda. Liberal 101.