MH17 crash: Victims' families sue Putin and Russia

a reply to: Xcalibur254


I do understand your apparent need to demonize the Russians, and in the hope of getting a straight answer, I would like to ask you why do you think the cover-up was so quick and so thorough?

Do you think that the efforts by humans to hide things has any meaning, behavior wise?

a reply to: Salander

You mean like the separatists removing large parts of the plane and originally refusing to hand over the black box?

a reply to: Salander

I gave you one of the articles that talks about it. You just ignored it apparently. And it was from a very respected aviation site, not Bellingcat. Let me guess, since it's not from a politician immediately after the fact, it's not valid information.

Funny how you seem to think that information that comes out immediately after a crash from a politician is more accurate than information found from the actual recorder or transponder itself.

Since you keep claiming there was an altitude change, prove it. Show actual proof they were ordered lower.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Be honest, he doesn't think all politicians that spoke right after the incident are more accurate than flight recorders and transponders. Only those that support his narrative. I don't think we'll see him touting out Igor Strelkov's post celebrating the downing of a plane mere minutes after MH17 was shot down.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Salander

The official narrative pretty much hasn't changed once since the tragedy. Certain details may have become more clear but they always suspected Ukrainian separatists using a Russian provided BUK downed MH17 on accident. Meanwhile the Russians have gone out of their way to provide numerous contradicting narratives. All of them backed up by fabricated evidence.

Why does that not make you suspicious of their motives?

By sheer coincidence, when this event happened I was stuck at home in front of the TV. Having been brainwashed by the best of them, I found it interesting that all 3 of the networks, NBC, ABC and CBS made a major propaganda event of it, with at least 2 of the networks devoting an entire hour to the incident instead of their usual 30 minutes. All the statements were from "anonymous" secret sources within the pentagon. I suspected something was up then, and followed it for the next several days on TV and online.

Never did and US source give his name, never did any US source provide any sort of evidence or satellite photos or anything else to prove what happened. The entire case was brought on "anonymous sources".

Quickly came the photos and the BBC video and interview. Just as quickly the BBC piece was taken down completely.

More evidence something was up, something was being hidden away. More facts showing a cover-up.

A Canadian man was interviewed and the quick analysis of the cannon fire marks on the wing and cockpit were shown, and anybody with even a small amount of knowledge regarding ballistics and gunshots could see what happened.

Yes, it was obvious that the aircraft had been shot at and hit. With a flaming engine, it was obvious that the craft had taken an AAM up the tailpipe.

All that was soon removed from public view. In the meantime, within about 10 days Russia provided radar data showing 2 aircraft climbing, and that corroborated what the peasants in the field observed in the BBC piece that was so quickly removed.

So the curious amongst us must ask: What possible advantage would Russia gain by doing this?

And the curious must also ask: why did nobody capture the launch trail of the BUK? If peasants could film the final 30 seconds of the airliner, why could nobody film the BUK launch?

Those questions have never been formally answered, supporting the malicious nature of the cover-up. The west is known for its many cover-ups and false flags. This is yet another example of one. The goal was to punish and demonize Russia in the feeble minds of the average American news watcher.

a reply to: ColdWisdom

I don't believe Russia had anything to do with this. No hard EVIDENCE let alone proof has been put forward about this. I've read just about as much about this as many people have and I have NEVER seen anything other than claim, claim, claim and claim.

If there is so much evidence they did it then what is the motive? whats in it for Russia?

Two witnesses s on the ground saw 2 smaller planes following it and pictures of the wreckage show bullet hole deflection in the metal GOING BOTH WAYS.

The metal is from the area of the plane that is right along side the pilots.

What EVIDENCE is there the two smaller planes were Russian, How would the old couple from the village below who saw them know if they were russian, ukrainian or americian planes????????

How would they know if they saw them only a 100 feet up?
how would they know whose they were when they are 10,000 feet up or whatever.

Sadly I think there are some on this forum are not here to find the truth.

Not having a go at the author of this thread here who is simply reporting events to take place, Im talking to all those who would claim russia did it.

originally posted by: Azureblue
I don't believe Russia had anything to do with this. No hard EVIDENCE let alone proof has been put forward about this.

Loads of hard evidence has been assembled that indicates Russian complicity in the murder of the those on the MH17.

a reply to: Azureblue

The evidence gathered proved it was a BUK surface to air missile. Even Almaz-Antay, the manufacturer of the missile said so. There was no solid evidence of another aircraft in the area. The Russian radar that claimed to have seen another aircraft nearby was in standby at the time. Witnesses would have a very hard time seeing two fighter sized aircraft at that altitude.

It also came out almost immediately that the rebels thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian Air Force aircraft and hit MH17 by accident.

MH17 crash Victims' families should be suing the government in Kiev for allowing the flight to happen in a war zone. Not suing the Russians.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Azureblue

The evidence gathered proved it was a BUK surface to air missile. Even Almaz-Antay, the manufacturer of the missile said so. There was no solid evidence of another aircraft in the area. The Russian radar that claimed to have seen another aircraft nearby was in standby at the time. Witnesses would have a very hard time seeing two fighter sized aircraft at that altitude.

It also came out almost immediately that the rebels thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian Air Force aircraft and hit MH17 by accident.

Funny that; because the Australian Foreign Minister still refuses to ask the Ukraine govt to release the control tower tapes, what is it, 2-3 years later? I wonder why. She wont even seek the assistance of our extremely close friends the US to help either. - funny that

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Azureblue
I don't believe Russia had anything to do with this. No hard EVIDENCE let alone proof has been put forward about this.

Loads of hard evidence has been assembled that indicates Russian complicity in the murder of the those on the MH17.

Again; thats an assertion, where is it ??? let it all come out in a court in some neutral country if such a thing exists these days.

originally posted by: Azureblue
Funny that; because the Australian Foreign Minister still refuses to ask the Ukraine govt to release the control tower tapes, what is it, 2-3 years later? I wonder why.

I have not seen evidence of that. Can you enlighten to a reliable source? It seems to me the "missing tapes" is the latest bit of disinformation created by Russian propaganda, in order to create a false narrative which some people cling to.

originally posted by: Azureblue
Again; thats an assertion, where is it ??? let it all come out in a court in some neutral country if such a thing exists these days.

It's not an assertion it's a fact. You need to do your own research, but start with the investigations.

Dutch SB investigation
Criminal investigation

... and so on.

originally posted by: Azureblue

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Azureblue

The evidence gathered proved it was a BUK surface to air missile. Even Almaz-Antay, the manufacturer of the missile said so. There was no solid evidence of another aircraft in the area. The Russian radar that claimed to have seen another aircraft nearby was in standby at the time. Witnesses would have a very hard time seeing two fighter sized aircraft at that altitude.

It also came out almost immediately that the rebels thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian Air Force aircraft and hit MH17 by accident.

Funny that; because the Australian Foreign Minister still refuses to ask the Ukraine govt to release the control tower tapes, what is it, 2-3 years later? I wonder why. She wont even seek the assistance of our extremely close friends the US to help either. - funny that

That's the thing--from all the cover-up by BBC and others, it's clear to any fool that something is being hidden from view.

Kiev has failed to explain the routing change, and the same Australian government that is silent about the plight of its citizen Julian Assange won't ask questions of Kiev.

It's a cover-up, and therefore the official story is false. An easy conclusion considering the accusers have not proved a single thing.

a reply to: paraphi

It seems to me the "missing tapes" is the latest bit of disinformation created by Russian propaganda, in order to create a false narrative which some people cling to.

Funny how you infer that its only people who disagree with what you believe who are the ones who "cling" to a false narrative.


There are two sources of knowledge in this world one is knowledge and the other is ignorance.

Is your confidence in the assertion that Russia did it driven by knowledge or by something else?


Again; I am happy to accept russia did it if there is solid verifiable proof they did it. Allegation is not evidence.

Perhaps you might benefit from considering the possibility that one or perhaps both of these two following statements are true.

Official narratives are often conspiracies pushed by the State and their allies in the media.

Organized conspiracy by people in power is a matter of history not of theory.

If you are genuinely interested in knowing the truth of the statements above is to be back through through the more notorious events which have occurred in recent times.

Take for example the Boston marathon - find the HD video of the explosion that occurred as runners are passing by and look very closely at the lady runner in green. Count the number of steps she takes before she looks in the direction of the explosion.

Look very carefully at what she does with her hand immediately before and immediately after that explosion. Then very closely watch the old bloke behind her and why he fell over.

cheers

a reply to: Azureblue

Care to answer the question and provide evidence that the Australian Foreign Minister "refuses to ask the Ukraine govt to release the control tower tapes". That's what you said. Now point to a reliable source to that.

a reply to: Azureblue

The control tower tapes have been released. There was even transcripts of them published by the media. Even if that wasn't the case, investigators have the black box from the flight. That's going to give them all the same data as the control tower tapes plus more.

So why would it matter if the control tower tapes hadn't been released?

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Azureblue

The control tower tapes have been released. There was even transcripts of them published by the media. Even if that wasn't the case, investigators have the black box from the flight. That's going to give them all the same data as the control tower tapes plus more.

So why would it matter if the control tower tapes hadn't been released?

If that is true then why didn;t the foerign minister get them released and get some brownies points and publicity for self. This is the first I've ever heard of them be released. Do you have a reference for this. [SNIP]

a reply to: Azureblue

Can you point to a source around the Australian Foreign minister's failure to get the tapes released, even if they have no actual bearing on the demonstrated culpability of Russia in the shooting down of MH17.

a reply to: Azureblue

MH17: Transcript of flight's last moments reveals frantic efforts to contact disappeared plane

Notice how the article specifically mentions control tower data being used.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Azureblue

MH17: Transcript of flight's last moments reveals frantic efforts to contact disappeared plane

Notice how the article specifically mentions control tower data being used.

thanks for that printing it off for later reading.