EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo has vanished from Radar

There have been some pictures released of debris. From initial observation the metal is all shredded looking.

Will post image/links/sources as soon as I figure out ATS on this device.

RT Egyptair coverage

a reply to: Zaphod58

I lack the experience you and Flyingclaydisk have, but i'm relucktant to say that this aircraft made a turn to the left and a 360 to the right.
It is nothing more than a interpretation of what is seen on primary radar.
If the pilots were in control of a functioning aircraft, we would have seen these moves and descent on the transponderdata, but the signal was lost while the aircraft was on course at cruise altitude.
The same could have been said of MH17 when reviewing the primary radar, it made a turn to the left, while in fact the cockpit was blown of the aircraft.
In the case of Metrojet, there was still transponder data after the explosion.
No case is the same, but one thing is quite certain to me, if a potential danger comes to the surface in a Boeing or Airbus, you can be certain that action is taken to prevent a repeat.
Both companies will not endanger the lives of thousands of passengers.
The fact that it happened so swiftly and that seats and bodies were found brings me to the scene of Metrojet, this aircraft also disintegrated in mid air after a bomb brought it down.

a reply to: earthling42

I appear to be missing a quote button.

Ms17 had seats and bodies found and the cause was external impact with a missile.

Egyptian government sources are telling CBS News that they have located Flight 804's black boxes in the Mediterranean and are working to recover them. A military spokesman refused to comment on the report.

Source

a reply to: auroraaus

Malaysian Airlines was not subscriber to ACARS system

Only signal from ACARS received from MH370 was "I'M HERE" pings every 30 minutes which investigators were using to track
flight

You have to pay to receive the ACARS data

a reply to: Leonidas

I have to shake my head when people jump to "Where is it? MH370 all over again!"

Well, I mentioned MH370, but that wasn't my reason for doing so (in case you're referring to my comment). I see very few similarities between MH370 and MS804 with the possible exception of the 90 degree left turn. Secondly, I don't believe terrorism was the primary cause of MH370. I don't know that I have any solid opinion about what caused MH370 to disappear; that one is a real enigma in my mind. There's just so many unexplainable elements to that incident (the right turn off NW Indonesia over the Straights of Malacca chief among them).

MS804 on the other hand, points strongly toward terrorism and not because of where it happened or who it was, but rather because of the flight profile and the flurry of ACARS messages right before the crash. Zaphod may well be right (and I'm wrong), but that's not how I see it at the moment. The strongest case supporting Zaphod's point is the amount of time which elapsed before the incident. This supports a non-intentional / mechanical failure over terrorism. However, if my theory holds, I believe it was just an odd coincidence it took so long. It was probably intended to happen sooner, but for whatever reason it didn't until roughly 00:26Z. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

Regarding people wanting immediate answers when events like this occur; it's human nature. Innocent people died and those remaining want an immediate explanation. Why should people be patient? As Zaphod even stated, it will likely take 1-2 years at best before any sort of an official conclusion will be released. Why should people want to wait?

For my part, I will admit to being somewhat biased in this, in an Occam's Razor sort of way. The end result of MS804 is the tragic loss of all souls on board, and no explanation otherwise can change this. We live in a world ripe with terrorism, especially lately and I want it's true face to be exposed for what it is over and over again. I want people to be so fed up with it that they finally DO something about it. A benign mechanical failure resulting in a crash won't do this, but 'yet another' terrorist act might. Then, maybe all the PAX and crew aboard MS804 will not have perished in vein.

My .02

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: Leonidas

I have to shake my head when people jump to "Where is it? MH370 all over again!"

Well, I mentioned MH370, but that wasn't my reason for doing so (in case you're referring to my comment). I see very few similarities between MH370 and MS804 with the possible exception of the 90 degree left turn. Secondly, I don't believe terrorism was the primary cause of MH370. I don't know that I have any solid opinion about what caused MH370 to disappear; that one is a real enigma in my mind. There's just so many unexplainable elements to that incident (the right turn off NW Indonesia over the Straights of Malacca chief among them).

MS804 on the other hand, points strongly toward terrorism and not because of where it happened or who it was, but rather because of the flight profile and the flurry of ACARS messages right before the crash. Zaphod may well be right (and I'm wrong), but that's not how I see it at the moment. The strongest case supporting Zaphod's point is the amount of time which elapsed before the incident. This supports a non-intentional / mechanical failure over terrorism. However, if my theory holds, I believe it was just an odd coincidence it took so long. It was probably intended to happen sooner, but for whatever reason it didn't until roughly 00:26Z. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

Regarding people wanting immediate answers when events like this occur; it's human nature. Innocent people died and those remaining want an immediate explanation. Why should people be patient? As Zaphod even stated, it will likely take 1-2 years at best before any sort of an official conclusion will be released. Why should people want to wait?

For my part, I will admit to being somewhat biased in this, in an Occam's Razor sort of way. The end result of MS804 is the tragic loss of all souls on board, and no explanation otherwise can change this. We live in a world ripe with terrorism, especially lately and I want it's true face to be exposed for what it is over and over again. I want people to be so fed up with it that they finally DO something about it. A benign mechanical failure resulting in a crash won't do this, but 'yet another' terrorist act might. Then, maybe all the PAX and crew aboard MS804 will not have perished in vein.

My .02

Weirdest post i've ever read on here. Ever.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Why so?

Perhaps you should re-read it.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Why so?

Perhaps you should re-read it.

What is it you want people to do about Terrorism?... A War on Terror maybe?...Yeah, that might work.

I find it deeply disturbing that you hope the death of 60+ souls was caused by a terrorist attack over mechanical failure just to suit your agenda. Though i'm still trying to work out what your agenda is tbh.

For the record, it is absolutely NOT my intention to find some sort of appreciation for terrorism in ANY way, shape or form! Quite the OPPOSITE, in fact. Terrorism and the people who condone it are the lowest form of human scourge. They are not even 'human' in my mind, and this is the spirit of what I'm trying to get at in my previous post. Though some may interpret it otherwise, they would be wrong; my intent is to put as UGLY of a face on terrorism as possible (it's true face)...and this is why I wrote what I did.

To say that innocent lives were lost in vein if an act was not terrorism is NOT in ANY WAY to suggest this is some kind of celebration. On the CONTRARY, the actions taken in the wake of such a tragic event serve as a tribute and a memorial to those lost. Any interpretation otherwise is simply misguided or misinformed.

Why should people want to wait?

In the current world, instant gratification is king.

The internet is seen as a solution but it often yields incorrect information deemed as truth which many then believe is fact. If it is repeated over and over enough, it is fact in many people's eyes. Those that talk the loudest are not always speaking the truth.

Any wonder so many today can't read more than a few words or spend time researching a subject.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

No! Not a "war"! We've already seen how well that works...haven't we????

War doesn't solve anything, but money sure does! Terrorism will stop when it becomes so unimaginably economically painful to harbor or sponsor terrorism either directly or indirectly that countries stop doing it. In other words, pure and absolute isolation.

a reply to: roadgravel

This is true. The internet has twisted people's minds to be sure.

I agree with your analogy. People's attention spans have been reduced to 140 characters or less. Anything beyond 140 characters is considered "outside the box" thinking anymore.

ETA...and I think we may have just seen one.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: Soloprotocol

No! Not a "war"! We've already seen how well that works...haven't we????

War doesn't solve anything, but money sure does! Terrorism will stop when it becomes so unimaginably economically painful to harbor or sponsor terrorism either directly or indirectly that countries stop doing it. In other words, pure and absolute isolation.

My apologies if i jumped the gun on your previous posts. Sorry Man. And yes you are correct. Fighting Terror with more Terror is the action of imbeciles. Unfortunately how do you isolate your own country. See: France and the UK as an example of home grown Terrorists...We could add Anders Breivik (Home Grown) and Timothy McViegh (home grown) etc etc into the equation.

a reply to: earthling42

And you may well be correct. As I noted earlier, it would be very helpful if we had some timestamps on the heading changes. Altitudes with those course changes would also be helpful.

If they all happened within seconds of each other, and seconds before the crash, they are likely meaningless. However, if they were separated in time and deliberate they may well have meaning. They wouldn't serve as an explanation in and of themselves, but they would provide more data points to evaluate.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Indeed, we have to address those factors in much the same way.

Those are valid points / considerations.

ETA...homegrown terror is rare though. In many cases it's not really even "terrorism" in the classic definition; the perpetrators don't have an end goal to be achieved by instilling fear. They are usually mentally disturbed people bent on getting their name in the news, and in their twisted minds killing people is the way to do this. The point here is, homegrown acts need to be dealt with differently than ideological terrorism.

a reply to: earthling42
Another false report, not blaming you earthling42..

www.telegraph.co.uk...

1:00PM Egyptian government denies black box located A source at the Civil Aviation ministry is now denying reports that the black boxes have been found. They tell the Egyptian newspaper Al-Masry Al-Youm that if the black boxes had been found they would notify the public "immediately".

The chaotic and contradicting claims out of Egypt continue.

It is way too soon(impossible) to be able to dive to retrieve the "black box" at this time, it couldn't still be floating.

Upon some reconsideration...why are reports of this event to the media flip-flopping so much? MS804 Debris found..later..debris not from MS804...later...debris found, confirmed from MS804...then..MS804 black boxes found...later...Egypt denies black boxes found..
Really doesn't it seem like the agencies involved either with the search, or the release of details, or the media are either amateurs, jumping the gun, or possibly covering something up?...tin foil cap in view..not wearing it yet.

My thought is some of the "chaotic and contradicting claims coming out of Egypt" are, in part, intentional subterfuge. There's a specific name for this kind of covert manipulation of information surrounding a tragedy such as this but I can't think of it right now. Darn! Nonetheless, I've watched manufactured confusion happen time and time again.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Zaph, a few months ago, on an MH380 thread, you posted this:
Fire, co-pilot side, 777

Of course, this not being a 777, but since they are saying that ACARS reported heat in the window areas of co-pilot seat in this crash, is it possible that they have the same equipment located there, and the possibility of faulty O2 lines/clips?

a reply to: charlyv

No, the A320 had a problem with the window heat units shorting and catching fire or cracking the window because of the heat.